This game is way too simplistic

I don't think there is a need for adding such mechanics with only the purpose of being a pain in the ass.

The Great Barrier Reef is dying. What a pain in the ass. God, please remove Global Warming!
Chinese people are choking in the smogs. What a pain in the ass. Chinese God, please remove Pollution!

Civilization 7: no more Horsemen and Spearmen, just generic "Warriors" beating each others to death with sticks, for the sake of simplicity.

Better yet, the upgrades should be: "Ancient Warriors" -> "Medieval Warriors" -> "Modern Warriors". Their "wooden sticks" become "steel sticks", then "boom sticks".
 
What the heck is a "Power Plant"?

I want to see
  • Thermal Power Plants that require Coal
  • Hydro Power Plants that need to be near Rivers
  • Wind Power Plants that need to be on Hills
  • Solar Power Plants that need to be on Desert tiles
  • Tidal Power Plants that need to be on Coasts
  • Nuclear Power Plants that require Uranium...

Wait, what? The game is "too simplistic" because there is a catch all "power plant"? Did you notice that helicopters can't fly over water?

The Great Barrier Reef is dying. What a pain in the ass. God, please remove Global Warming!
Chinese people are choking in the smogs. What a pain in the ass. Chinese God, please remove Pollution!

Ok, now I get the impression this is about ideology, not about creating a good game...
 
It's a game. For entertainment. Get over it.

In the current state, this game is way too simplistic, not good entertainment.

Devs should stop dumbing it down, stuffs like Nationality and Pollution were in previous game, they should improve them instead of removing them.

If anyone likes simple entertainment, (s)he should go play mindless FPS instead.

If Pollution is a pain in the ass, then why the heck do we need "Religions"? Religious units keep flooding my city, it's annoying af. A real pain in the ass.
 
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In the current state, this game is way too simplistic, not good entertainment.

Devs should stop dumbing it down, stuffs like Nationality and Pollution were in previous game, they should improve them instead of removing them.

If anyone likes simple entertainment, (s)he should go play mindless FPS instead.

If Pollution is a pain in the ass, then why the heck do we need "Religions"? Religious units keep flooding my city, it's annoying af. A real pain in the ass.

Yeah, and stuff like Districts, Civic trees and trade routes building roads instead of workers were not. You give some, you get some. And you're gonna get probably two more expansions before it's over.
 
We don't even have railroads. What the heck? We don't need trains? Why do we need ships when land units can "embark" and cross the ocean, fight on water, I don't even
 
In the current state, this game is way too simplistic, not good entertainment.

Devs should stop dumbing it down, stuffs like Nationality and Pollution were in previous game, they should improve them instead of removing them.

If anyone likes simple entertainment, (s)he should go play mindless FPS instead.

If Pollution is a pain in the ass, then why the heck do we need "Religions"? Religious units keep flooding my city, it's annoying af. A real pain in the ass.
Religion, on the other hand, gives you an advantage if you play it well. What advantage does handling pollution well give you, except negating its disadvantages?
 
We don't even have railroads. What the heck?

No, we don't.

With the new district system and a hint about canals before the game was released, they'd make a perfect expansion pack focused on infratstructure.
 
Religion, on the other hand, gives you an advantage if you play it well.

it's boring as heck, and unless you turned off Religious Victory, ignoring Religion will lead to game over, so this crap is annoying


What advantage does handling pollution well give you, except negating its disadvantages?

negating its disadvantages gives you the advantage over other civilization, so in a sense it still rewards players for playing well :p
 
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I ignore religion every game, and I've never seen an AI even get close to a religious victory. Disclaimer though, I always play on Huge.
 
I think 'global warming' would be interesting less as a 'your plains turn to desert' game mechanic, and more as the possible 'victory condition' for the diplomatic victory. It's not enough that you get votes - you have to get their science up, fund clean energy implementation, etc.

For variety of power plants and placement rules - yes, if you make power plant it's own district with no buildings. It just gives a production bonus in a 6 tile radius, and then -2 appeal in 3 tile radius (if it's dirty energy. Maybe -1 or -0 appeal if it's clean energy). It's production bonus overlaps though.

Power plant gets replaced with a manufacturing center that have several versions you can build (ala barracks/stable): for instance one gives a significant bonus to spaceship part production, one a significant bonus to military unit production, one that is required to meet 'demand' for your custom 'amenity' for the corporation/economic victory condition, etc.
 
I think 'global warming' would be interesting less as a 'your plains turn to desert' game mechanic, and more as the possible 'victory condition' for the diplomatic victory. It's not enough that you get votes - you have to get their science up, fund clean energy implementation, etc.

Now there's an interesting idea. No idea how it would work, but any Diplomatic Victory that works beyond simply buying up votes is the right line of thinking.
 
Barbarians is a pain in the ass. Should not be in the game.

You're doing something wrong if they're a pain in the ass. If you play it right they're experience pinatas.
 
it's boring as heck, and unless you turned off Religious Victory, ignoring Religion will lead to game over, so this crap is annoying
Any good player knows that that is a risk if you play Pangea all the time and is no risk at all if playing continents

If you play Pangea you are playing earth before pollution so what's your problem?

I did suggest hospital should be upgraded and banks and markets if we talk power plants.

There are choices in this game that do not by any means make it simple and in fact it's not a one trick pony like civ V

I mean for example I want to know if/where I have iron but I also want archers. As England I sometimes push iron first for quite astounding results and I have all this animal sinew thrown in the bin every night
 
Pollution needs to be back and Global Warming needs to be added (unless the devs are Trump supporters)

The game also needs dynamic maps, like the ices melt, sea level rises as climate becomes warmer, natural disasters that can destroy an entire civilization

I also don't know why Hospitals, diseases, plagues, United Nations, Diplomatic Victory, Stealth Bombers are not in the game

Yes, pollution management should definitely make a comeback.
 
I can flat out tell you this series is not for you. What you're talking about is the anti-thesis of Sid Meier's design philosophy and trends in board game design, both of which Firaxis is heavily influenced by.

There are two forms of complexity I don't think English really defines individually. There is linear complexity you get by cluttering or complicating something incrementally with minor variations of the same thing, which takes a long time and many elements to achieve complexity. Then there is geometric complexity you get from the interplay between mutually interactive and distinct elements each increasing the complexity of a system multiplicatively. Civ is a series increasingly emphasizing the latter while eliminating as much of the former as possible (the board game influence which needs to make the most out of everything). This keeps each element succinct while focusing their development on the interactions between each elements. This brings the game in line with Sid Meier's philosophy of interesting choices, since the area between elements is where evaluations must be made and choices happen. The complexity of the choice depends on the quality of the distinction between elements. This general design philosophy appeals particularly to anyone focusing objectively on mechanics rather than getting caught up in the the subjective theming and aesthetics of them. Both are valid approaches to consuming any kind of media, but it is a matter of taste, and in general, strategy games are meant to be inclined heavily toward objective decision making.

So, either you're talking about adding iterative forms of power facilities, necessitating minor variations of separately named and modeled but functionally identical strategic resources, which the development team would discard as superfluity. Or you're talking about adding substance to make each individual power facility unique with far reaching consequences. I think this would necessitate adding a climate system to the game to contextualize each element's meaningful interaction between each existing element. That would be a huge undertaking, the scope of which we generally see with expansions -adding the religious system in God's and Kings for example. Also I think it would be a waste of development unless they added future eras along with it -like Beyond the Sword did, to extend the game so these new back-loaded systems would actually have time to impact a victory. Ultimately I think it would be a lot of work for adding such a specific theme to the game.

In general both forms of complexity in game design are mutually exclusive at the extremes. Dwarf Fortress is an example of a game that develops both extremes simultaneously and you may know how radical a departure from traditional game design that is, and the concessions it makes in order to do this.
If it really is that "linear complexity" you're looking for, Its something I miss from the series too as it is increasingly polarized toward the geometric, but it's not something I miss enough to lament over what we've gained. I do still think back on Civ4 occasionally, which was a much better game for roll-playing as a result of that different style. Honestly though if that's what I'm looking for I'll play Crusader Kings 2.
If that's the argument you want to make for the Civ series, I think that would be valid, even though my preferences are clearly to the contrary.
Calling Civ 6 less complex I think is just objectively ignorant though. You're letting illusion dominate your perspective of what complexity actually is, or you're miss-using complexity as a stand-in to express your level of engagement.
 
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Well, of course this game must have some complication, we wouldn't play civ if we didn't like complicated games, but then again, a full-scalle realistic economic simulation is not feasible and, if it was, it would be damn boring. And once we agree that the game should have a certain level of complication, well, everyone has different tastest on his ideal level of complication. it's pointless to pursue this argument.
Therefore I will advocate pollution mechanics from a different perspective, one not yet addressed. That of roleplaying the game.

There are many ways of playing civ, from hardcore optimization to just doing what feels fun at the moment. One thing civ has that few other game have however is the chance to live history, to pretend/roleplay like you were a real leader of your struggling civilization. you fought off the barbaric hordes in the ancient age, you developed sciences and arts, you built great cities, you developed industry... I like doing that, and while I also put a good deal of emphasis on the optimization side, I just cannot bring myself to attack a leader that was friendly to me, and sometimes I will make a sewer in a city that does not need it because those poor townsfolk should have a decent sewer system, that kind of stuff. I want to produce a civilization that not only can defeat its competitors and accumulate points towards some arbitrary win conditions, but in which I would be proud to live.
And pollution is probably the single biggest threat to human civilization since the end of the cold war, only rivaled by overpopulation (and since this put a strain on resources and ecosystem, it can be considered a part of the pollution problem) and possibly muslim fanaticism (I don't see daesh ideology gaining much following, but then again, hitler won the elections...). And so roleplaying to defeat pollution has the ppotential to be incredibly satisfying for a roleplaying-oriented gamer. I loved to build recycling centers and hydro power in civ4, and seeing those green faces go down. I would rejoice in building the MOSE project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project) or the ocean cleanup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ocean_Cleanup) world wonders. Swapping my coal plants for photovoltaic and wind generators, researching the technologies that would make 100% renewable possible, adopt the "recycling" and "environmental consciousness" policies. Or maybe - this should not be about ideology, and there could be many ways to overcome the polllution problem - research next generation nuclear plants, nuclear fusion, invest production in carbon capture projects, make advanced hospitals that will turn the worst pollution-related diseases into mild annoyances. Or then again, fail to prevent the worst and adapting to it - building dikes on coastal tiles to protect them from flooding, moving northwards where increased heating is turning frozen tundra into potential farmland.

Yes, I agree that the global warming mechanic from civ4 was stupid, and I hated it, but a more general pollution mechanic would be welcome. the "healt" mechanic from civ4, where bad pollution equated to negative food for the city, was good, for example. Pollution should cause reduced food production, negative amenities and negative gold per turn - for increased hospitalization, working days lost to illness, increased corrosion from acidic rain... some may want more complex mechanics, but I think even those who dislike the idea of pollution mechanics wouldn't mind too much getting some food penalty until they build a recycling center.

The game has a cyberpunk/dystopian vibe in the later eras. With ancient techs, the tech quotes will tell you how great that technology is, how many wonderful things you can do with it. Starting around the industrial eras, the quotes will complain on how this technology has made lives miserable. In ancient ages, you unlock universities and theaters. In the modern age, you unlock nothing but military units. And space projects, that are good only for military espionage or science victory. Airports are only good for military aircrafts, all the bonuses of civilian aviation are given passively as you tech flight. There is a distinct lack of stuff to build in the information era that is not military. I want to end the game on a hopeful note. I want to face the biggest threat our society is facing and defeat it, or at least survive it, because that would make for a more satisfying game.

Religion, on the other hand, gives you an advantage if you play it well. What advantage does handling pollution well give you, except negating its disadvantages?

"build a civilization to stand the test of time". That's what civilization is about. Well, "not being buried in your own garbage" is definitely on the checklist for surviving the test of time, so I want it to be in the game. But if you want to see it purely mechanic-wise, pollution is like housing; the only advantage in overcoming it is that you won't be penalized by it anymore. That's unless we give bonus production from recycling, bonus diplomacy from other leaders being happy you are not burying them too in your trash, bonus amenities from your people happy that they get a better life expectation.

P.S. on the "moving resources" topic: of course you can grow corn everywhere. I just assume a spot with corn is one where the land is exceptionally fertile, so your farm there get extra food. If you harvest the resource, you overfarm the land, getting huge profits now but damaging the land in a way that will not recover. Makes perfect sense if you choose to interpret bonus resources that way.
 
Yes, pollution management should definitely make a comeback.

It doesn't even need a terribly complicated mechanism either. Rising tides and destroying coastal improvements and districts is probably more complicated than it needs to be. A simple mechanism: starting in the industrial age, buildings can start to produce pollution. Each building/district/etc... produces it over a range (like for the factory), and each tile has a "pollution" counter like they do for appeal.

Cities lose housing at a rate of 1/2 housing per "point" of pollution per district in the city. So if a city has 4 districts with -1 pollution each, then the city has -2 housing.
If the pollution counter gets to a certain negative value, then you also lose tile yields.

Then maybe each of the power plant types would take up a tile, but you could "decommission" them to replace them with a newer plant when you get to it (since you shouldn't have to choose in the medieval era where to put your industrial district to decide which power plant it was allowed to build). Forests, National Parks would reduce pollution from surrounding tiles. New buildings like mass transit or recycling centres would decrease pollution as well.

It's simple in that's it's simple one more thing like appeal to worry about. Maybe it won't hurt you and you can just build factories like crazy. And no, it doesn't have the dire consequences of "cities sinking into the sea", but whatever, as long as you make it so that it can hurt you enough that you have to pay attention to it, it could be a decent enough mechanism.
 
Well, of course this game must have some complication, we wouldn't play civ if we didn't like complicated games, but then again, a full-scalle realistic economic simulation is not feasible and, if it was, it would be damn boring. And once we agree that the game should have a certain level of complication, well, everyone has different tastest on his ideal level of complication. it's pointless to pursue this argument.
Therefore I will advocate pollution mechanics from a different perspective, one not yet addressed. That of roleplaying the game.

There are many ways of playing civ, from hardcore optimization to just doing what feels fun at the moment. One thing civ has that few other game have however is the chance to live history, to pretend/roleplay like you were a real leader of your struggling civilization. you fought off the barbaric hordes in the ancient age, you developed sciences and arts, you built great cities, you developed industry... I like doing that, and while I also put a good deal of emphasis on the optimization side, I just cannot bring myself to attack a leader that was friendly to me, and sometimes I will make a sewer in a city that does not need it because those poor townsfolk should have a decent sewer system, that kind of stuff. I want to produce a civilization that not only can defeat its competitors and accumulate points towards some arbitrary win conditions, but in which I would be proud to live.
And pollution is probably the single biggest threat to human civilization since the end of the cold war, only rivaled by overpopulation (and since this put a strain on resources and ecosystem, it can be considered a part of the pollution problem) and possibly muslim fanaticism (I don't see daesh ideology gaining much following, but then again, hitler won the elections...). And so roleplaying to defeat pollution has the ppotential to be incredibly satisfying for a roleplaying-oriented gamer. I loved to build recycling centers and hydro power in civ4, and seeing those green faces go down. I would rejoice in building the MOSE project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project) or the ocean cleanup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ocean_Cleanup) world wonders. Swapping my coal plants for photovoltaic and wind generators, researching the technologies that would make 100% renewable possible, adopt the "recycling" and "environmental consciousness" policies. Or maybe - this should not be about ideology, and there could be many ways to overcome the polllution problem - research next generation nuclear plants, nuclear fusion, invest production in carbon capture projects, make advanced hospitals that will turn the worst pollution-related diseases into mild annoyances. Or then again, fail to prevent the worst and adapting to it - building dikes on coastal tiles to protect them from flooding, moving northwards where increased heating is turning frozen tundra into potential farmland.

Yes, I agree that the global warming mechanic from civ4 was stupid, and I hated it, but a more general pollution mechanic would be welcome. the "healt" mechanic from civ4, where bad pollution equated to negative food for the city, was good, for example. Pollution should cause reduced food production, negative amenities and negative gold per turn - for increased hospitalization, working days lost to illness, increased corrosion from acidic rain... some may want more complex mechanics, but I think even those who dislike the idea of pollution mechanics wouldn't mind too much getting some food penalty until they build a recycling center.

The game has a cyberpunk/dystopian vibe in the later eras. With ancient techs, the tech quotes will tell you how great that technology is, how many wonderful things you can do with it. Starting around the industrial eras, the quotes will complain on how this technology has made lives miserable. In ancient ages, you unlock universities and theaters. In the modern age, you unlock nothing but military units. And space projects, that are good only for military espionage or science victory. Airports are only good for military aircrafts, all the bonuses of civilian aviation are given passively as you tech flight. There is a distinct lack of stuff to build in the information era that is not military. I want to end the game on a hopeful note. I want to face the biggest threat our society is facing and defeat it, or at least survive it, because that would make for a more satisfying game.



"build a civilization to stand the test of time". That's what civilization is about. Well, "not being buried in your own garbage" is definitely on the checklist for surviving the test of time, so I want it to be in the game. But if you want to see it purely mechanic-wise, pollution is like housing; the only advantage in overcoming it is that you won't be penalized by it anymore. That's unless we give bonus production from recycling, bonus diplomacy from other leaders being happy you are not burying them too in your trash, bonus amenities from your people happy that they get a better life expectation.

P.S. on the "moving resources" topic: of course you can grow corn everywhere. I just assume a spot with corn is one where the land is exceptionally fertile, so your farm there get extra food. If you harvest the resource, you overfarm the land, getting huge profits now but damaging the land in a way that will not recover. Makes perfect sense if you choose to interpret bonus resources that way.

You make the best case for a pollution/global warming I have ever seen.
 
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