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This is Where it Always Starts Downhill

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by LowEndUser, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. Fanny Brice

    Fanny Brice Prince

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    Going back to your original post -- as others have pointed out, I think your main problem is the early game.

    * You should have been able to explore most of the continent early on. I usually pop out at least three warriors (or scouts if available) and send them on a one way mission to explore. You should be able to explore your immediate are with no trouble, meet all the civs on your continent, and get most of the terrain out of the black. Don't worry about the occasional one tile trespass into AI civ terrain -- they give you a warning to get out and you move the next turn and keep exploring.
    * You MUST secure the nearest iron resource.
    * Concentrate on a core of about 5 cities that will have good shield production
    * Make a settler farm city near flood plains or food resources
    * Start making swordmen and be prepared to prune back the nearest civs.
    * Secure tradeable luxuries or resources
    * Settle cities on defensible terrain. Use rivers and hills for defensive bonuses. The further away your city is from your core and the closer to other civs the more important this is.
    * Beware of aggressive civs like the Aztecs and Mongels. If they demand gold -- give it to them. They WILL declare war on you. Giving up 20 gold is a small price to pay for continuing to expand.
    * When you do receive the "demand" from other civs this is your warning to start building more offensive units. You will need to build a mix of offensive units (like archers and swordmen). The AI civs always know how strong you are.
    * Pop rush a temple in new cities as early as possible to get some culture going in order to expand your borders. Temple pop-rushing has almost no effect on the population -- they get mad... but now they have a temple to make them happy. And they will get over the oppression soon enough. If you have a lux or two already, you have no problem.
    * You should have at least one war of expansion and/or AI civ pruning done before switching to republic.
    * Don't worry too much about distant civs plunking down cities near you -- especially near your capital. You have the advantage of building cultural improvements in nearby cities and getting a culture flip.

    That is some advice for the early game so can get through the mid game better. good luck :)
     
  2. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    Thanks for all the specific advice F. Brice, never knew about pop rushing a Temple in new cities, good idea that ;)

    VMXA, I think I need to to learn specifics on combat, I never can get your kind of results.
     
  3. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    I'd disagree about pop-rushing temples. Use your population instead to produce a settler and fill in your cultural borders with another town. A temple costs 1gpt maintenance and, if you do it in many towns, the ongoing costs will use up gold that could be better used for research or support troops, and the additional towns will also increase troop support.
     
  4. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Listen to gmaharriet, pop rushing has a place, but it is not for everyday use. It is for special condition.

    Nothing special about combat. You use over whelming force, if you can. Use bombardment, if you want to up your kill ration and then armies. IOW I prefer to send in a unit that can't lose, well should not lose as much as I can.

    I have cleared off all but the lessor Sumerians. I have the two small island now. I think I have 25 armies, I am not making any more.

    I need to make some more transports while I axe the Sumerians. I have tank armies and Modern armor is in a few turns. I should be close to domination, forgot to check.
     
  5. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    LowEndUser, I should have mentioned that you want to look for all the advantages you can. First use vet vs their regs. Use superior units, when you can. Use those with retreat vs their with none.

    Avoid terrain that favors them. Of course, use bombardment to soften them. Get armies to hit the towns or any tough unit that you cannot reduce.

    This is a shot of of the late game. Not making many units as I already have enough to kill all of them.

    I stayed at war for the last two ages and did not switch out of republic. With 6 luxs and them declaring on me, it is no sweat.
     
  6. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    BTW having two civs called Sumeria had another consequence. I had eliminated the top Sumerian civ and later attacked the other Sumerian civ and all the other towns I had became unhappy with me being at war with Sumerians.

    They acted as if they are the same civ, so I had to put dozens of beakerheads to entertainment. I will have to make this a quicker war than I would prefer.

    I grabbed 7 cities the first turn. Once IBT passes I expect they will send out enough units to make the rest easier to take.
     
  7. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    When the game hit domination, a few turns in the war with Sumeria, I did not get the screen where the warrior hits the arcade bell?

    I forget why that is, but it must have something to do with the strange way the game behaved. One day CAII would have problems with it and the next it was fine?
     
  8. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    I have no idea what`s going on with the Game, I`m getting 2 of the same Civs sometimes as well. I guess I`ll try a reinstall......anyone else know about this problem ??:(
     
  9. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Never heard of it before. Maybe the Biq is corrupted. reinstall makes sense to me.
     
  10. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    Started another Regent level as Japan on a large Map in hopes of better managing the early game. It `s 210 AD. I have Iron and Swords. Started a pre-build for the GL.

    Greece DOW me and I bribed Korea with a Tech who is next to her to go to war. I`ve had very mixed results with that strategy, in some cases, about 40%, the partner does nothing, in another 40% it takes or loses one city and stops, in a rare 20% it is a terrific long term war partner, really going after the target Civ. and even sending units to help defend my territory areas.

    I`m not sure I want to mount an attack on Greece since it`s a long way. I also posted a Screenshot and would appreciate some help with how to proceed with my city builds and expansion assuming the opinion is not an aggressive War. ( My real target later Game is Korea if it does nothing for the bribe:p ) Save included.

    All help appreciated.
     

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  11. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    First, not real clear as to the need to research Monarchy. I would not do Myst/Poly as they can be traded for later and they can have Monarchy. I will get it for next to nothing at some point.

    Only time I want it is if, I am going to do war most of the time or always. Why bother with it otherwise? It is an optional tech and beakers cannot be wasted on it, unless you intend to trade it around for other tech.

    I never build any of those wonders Oracle/ToA or Hanging. Only time I would is in a game that is so easy I can build them and not skip a beat. This can be done at Regent, but why do it?

    Republic is something that you could actually use and about now is often a good point or soon.

    I see the advice I gave about the units was not well received. I do not see any need for any spears at this level and at this map setting. Remember no regular units after a couple of warriors, the rest must be vets, unless you have a compelling need and at regent that should not happen.

    You have lots of spears many are regulars, you have a number of archers all regs. I would not build archers either as you should have known you had Iron as soon as you got the tech.

    I am sure no one was making any threats and barbs should not be an issue at this level. You can kill them with warriors. I even see a reg sword.

    You have 8 warriors, now that is crazy. 10 archers, what can I say and 9 spears. That 27 units and you have 6 lousy workers. That is how you fail to run over the AI.

    I probably would have no more than 8 units, unless we had a war. If I was in a war, then I would have made only attackers.

    If you are playing peacefully, then 8 swords and 20 workers here would be the way to go. You have 14 towns, you are never going to get all the task done that should already have been accomplished.

    I see workers doing task I told you were not smart. One is mining the Iron. What is the value of spending all those turns and no one is even working the tile? Let it wait. You have cow tiles with no road or water. Wheat with no road or water. Towns not connected to the network.

    In a game like this I would probably have a road down for the next settler to get to the spot it will found a town. This is how you crush a Regent game.

    I did not look over the game that well, but I see only 1 ship out. You could have at least sent one in each direction. You see a civ off the coast, so that could be another ship.

    If you had done that you would have more contacts and that can only be good.

    One last thing, I still suggest no more large maps, until you learn the ropes. The main thing is it is a distortion and additionally it is more painful for others to load and examine for you.

    Once you are well versed,then play any size that you like. I would only add do not play with less than the full number of civs allowed or even a few extras on a huge map. The fewer civs the easier it is for the human.

    I hope this is of some use to you. I under take it as you have shown a willingness to stick to the game.
     
  12. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    I agree with everything you said except for this single item. I used to try to make games easier with fewer civs and found it creates several problems.

    1. The fewer civs, the fewer the resources available. You will probably have to go a very long distance to find iron and/or horses, and in the late game will likely be missing something entirely from your own continent.

    It becomes especially difficult if you want a peaceful game and build a spaceship. You just will NOT have everything you need, and having been peaceful, you are unlikely to have the military to go take it.

    You are also likely to have a hard time finding enough luxes to keep your population happy.

    2. Assuming you are lucky enough to locate iron/horses/luxes early, when you do decide to go to war, the nearest civ maybe 25 or 30 tiles away from your most distant borders. Your military may be outdated by the time you get to them, and reinforcements take forever to reach the front lines.

    Having fewer civs being easier is only an illusion and only helps in the earliest turns of the game. The problems it creates for you get worse and worse over time. I never do it anymore. If I want an easier game, I play at a lower level, but with the default number of civs.
     
  13. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Actually I am right, who would of thought that? I am presuming one is at least a better player than the IA of course and I know you are.

    So forget about resources and lux they fallout how ever they fall out good or bad.

    The key is that you will make better use of your empire than the AI will. It is like a pro Holdem player in a field of non pros. They are willing to get into more hands, because they figure to out play those guys after the flop.

    The fact that I am going to out play the AI at some point, does not guarantee that I will win. Some times at levels like Sid or AWDG or better, I will not be able to offset the start.

    Same as the pro card player, he can out play the opposition after the flop, but not always win. He just gets the money in at a favorable position more often and hopes the odds work out.

    If I in fact cannot get Iron or Horse or whatever I need before it is too late, I may well suffer. I would do so regardless how many civs are in the game.

    All you need to understand is that what games will the human do the best at and it is always a larger map and less than standard number of civs. This is almost critical at levels like Sid.

    You do not see a lot of games being played and won on standard maps pangea with 8 civs at this level. You see huge maps with 12 civs. There is a good reason for that.
     
  14. LowEndUser

    LowEndUser Chieftain

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    VMXA & FB, thanks for taking the time to look at the save, very kind of you and offer good advice. I will get more workers out, and search boats.

    I get Monarchy ASAP because IMHO in C3 it`s the best Govt. for a warmonger, which I will play this Game as since as you know you can set the Research slider at 0% use $$$ to rush build units. In fact, I tend to keep it throughout the Game unless I switch to Commie.

    VMXA, I`m suprised you recommend Republic since in other past threads you like Monarchy as well in your higher level Games or those you post on ????

    I find Republic nothing but problems in C3 with Cities constantly going in and out of disorder for no apparent reason ( to me anyway ) I post a Pic of my Capitial, Kyoto size 11 in disorder ( they say it`s too crowded ? ) , note all the happiness buildings, including a colosseum,temple, and the Palace itself. The Lux slider is set at 10% too.

    What`s up with that ?

    As background, I built Archers early since it took time to develop the Iron and it looked like Greece was going send a Stack at me when he DOW`ed and not sure the Spearman could hold the boarder cities.

    Thanks !
     

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  15. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Well Republic is not as good in C3 as it is in C3C. so Monarchy is not so bad, but still I go for Republic in the old vanilla days, UNLESS, I am going to war a lot.

    Normally I would expect most players will not fight more than 15-20 turns and then stop to let the war weariness wear off. The main thing is you do not need to research about 4 techs with Republic.

    You get to the next age sooner and to key techs like Currency and Construction.

    I would go with Republic in C3C in a normal game as well as it is much stronger than Monarchy. As long as you build lots of cities and towns for support. In C3 you have to build them for larger pop to make more gold to pay the support.

    The other factor is that you will not have to have MP's stilling around getting fat and costing you money. You make units and use them to kill someone.

    In Monarchy, MP's are dual edge sword. They provide happiness, but they cost support. You also are hard press to set them to fight as you lose the MP factor. This is offset by making even more units, a catch -22.

    None of these govs work, if you do not expand and get road and mines up in a timely fashion. If you have an extra harsh ration of lux, then it will be tougher as well.

    It is also quite common for me to run 30% lux. Just the price of poker. Note that commie is not so good in C3 as it is in C3C and I do not recall ever using it in C3 or PTW.

    Now onto the city you mentioned. So you only have 2 lux in 960AD. That is certainly a problem for a size 11 or 12 city. I would not have made the collesseum. I would not be making a cath eithter.

    I would be upping my lux slider and using specialist if I had no choice. The best thing is to find a third lux.

    Again Republic is the better gov for peaceful or non warmonger play. It is not a big boost in C3, but you will do better, if you manage it right.

    One thing Monarchy does is let you strain less, but it slows you down. tTis is offset by warring a lot more. Most prefer to not do that.

    You can stay at war endlessly in the late game, if you do things right in republic. I have done it many times. At the late stage you may well make a cath in a key core town or two. This is done at a point that the cost is nothing and you can toss it up in a couple of turns.

    Not when you do not have lots of gold and are going to need 20 turns to make the thing. That will hurt you more than help. Taking the only good cities out of production at that stage is crippling, not deadly though.
     
  16. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    As vmxa said, you need another lux. But take a look at your citizens. You have 5 happy, 1 content, 4 unhappy and a clown. You only need to be sure that you don't have MORE unhappy than happy, and either a taxman or scientist would have been sufficient to balance them out. You get nothing in return for clowns.
     
  17. King Hannibal

    King Hannibal Chieftain

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    Just a question why do alot of people out there use republic? I use monarchy and at times i stay in dep if im planning on pop rushing. Have you tried staying in Monarchy? lets you have a few soldiers, if you have save water on your flanks and rear you can just defend your front. I dont know if many like this concept but i use it often if im on an arch map i normaly block the edges so no one can board my islands until they have marines
     
  18. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Monarchy, I used to love it. In my experience, as King Hannibal stated above, you can win in monarchy without war-ing constantly. But why? After I went Republic a couple of times I learned why it was better. The extra commerce is big, very big. Even when I find myself making -50gpt after "the switch" it means I have too many units(swords). I can take 2-3 AI towns, stop, make peace, demand things, get them, ect... The thing is you loose some units which raises your gold per turn and you gain cities which raises your unit support(the more cities you have and the bigger they are gives you some maintenance free units). So, basically, you war with a neighbor until your gpt comes back close to 0gpt or break even or equilibrium, whatever you want to call it. Once this happens you make peace. Build your markets and librarys where applicable. At this point you will have a powerhouse, much more so than Monarchy.
     
  19. MAS

    MAS Deity

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    Because its plain better. Most of the time...

    A size 12 city in republic gives 12 bonus commerce, that same city under monarchy gives 4 unit upkeep.
    In vanilla this means you can pay the support cost for 12 units under republic, using the bonus, while sending as much to research as you would under monarchy paying the support for 4 unit.
    If you don't have 4 units under monarchy, the upkeep gold is lost to nothing. (the bonus is only used for unit upkeep) if you have less than 12 units under republic, you can, instead, up the science.
    With a market this becomes 18 units under republic.
    In conquest, units cost 2 gpt under republic, but republic gains some free unit upkeep as well. So the same city could support 3+6=9 units under republic, and 3+9=12 units with a market.

    Due to the corruption, the uncorruptible bonus of monarchy becomes better if your empire grows really large, but if your empire grows larger, you will need less units per city. (the border becomes smaller compared to the surface area) In conquest, republic has such an uncorruptible bonus too, only a tiny bit smaller than monarchy.
    And you often don't need that many units.

    The MP is a trap! If you use 3 units for MP in monarchy, you actually have only 1 unit upkeep per city, as the other 3 are used for contentness.
     
  20. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    ^^Another good point. MP's restrict your options. Options are always good ;)
     

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