Thoughts of a FFH2 newcomer

[DaveGold]

DaveGold, I suggest you try a few WB tests and see what you can find.

Did you give all the pyre zombies a strength promotion? The AI units always have at least one basic strength promotion, usually more. I also suspect that as they get more stronger they have a larger splash which makes them doubly dangerous.

I'm very well practised at fighting these lousy things in game and sometimes beating them, but usually at massive expense when using exotic tactics. A good example was a game where the Sheiam had wiped out a strong Malakim nation and then attacked me directly afterwards. I was fortunately Hippus with raiders and aggressive and could immediately run down the road and capture back a Malakim city. I then handed the city to a neutral nation with closed borders to the Sheiam which forced the PZ on a long route cross country to my cities (which I thought was quite clever at the time). Even though I was able to launch attacks from the neutral city and raid out the roads, mess up the stacks with splashes, and generally have everything favourable, it was still ultimately impossible to take down their stacks. A strong Sheiam nation can produce a lot of PZ. All I could do was bide time until sorcery came through.

 

[Emptiness]

I conclude that PZ (as used by the AI) are overrated by many players.

First, you need to do many more than just one test before you can draw statistically significant conclusions. Each of the two tests you did would constitute one repetition; add in 99 more of each and you might begin to have meaningful results.

Second, you have concluded that a 24% chance of victory is better than a 60% chance of victory + a 15% chance to withdraw. This alone strongly suggests that your results may represent a statistical anomaly and that your conclusion may be questionable.

Third, it is wrong to compare the hammer-cost of your Warriors to the hammer-cost of the AI's Pyre Zombies. Many of the AI's Pyre Zombies will have been upgraded from Warriors (and so will not have a hammer cost but rather a hammer+gold cost), and also your hammers and the AI's hammers may not be equal because at many of the difficulty levels one of you has a bonus.

 

[UncleJJ]

@ Davegold: As I stated in my original post the warriors and PZ were assumed to have the same promotions and access to bronze (or not). That is a sensible baseline comparison. Obviously if one side has more promotions or access to bronze while the other side doesn't the results will be shifted. If you want to impose your own conditions and comment on the effects then fine, be my guest the WB is available to everyone.

@ Emptiness
First, I did extensive tests and repeated them many times, I have confidence in the results I presented. I gave illustrative numbers that strongly supported my original contention, I did not claim they were statistics. My results are meaningful in the sense that warriors can easily beat PZ on a cost effective basis. If you want to find out exactly how cost effective you can do the tests yourself, I was merely seeking proof of principle. Instead of making ignorant quibbling about my methods why not actually do some tests yourself and present them? Who knows you might learn something.

Second, I may not have expressed myself clearly here but that's little excuse for you to immediately think I don't know what I'm doing. I was comparing the utility of warriors and horsemen in combination and separately. On average it takes two warriors to kill a single PZ with the second warrior having a good survival chance. A single horseman has a 60% of killing a full strength PZ and a withdrawl chance if it fails, but in both cases is so badly damaged that it requires 3 turns to move away and heal, effectively taking it out of that battle, although it could be useful later. I conclude that little is gained by using a 60 hammer horsemen instead of 2 warriors for beating the intial main invasion stack of PZ.

Third, it is not wrong to compare hammer costs of the PZ to the warrior, that is simply the most straightforward method and is one obvious comparison. The Sheaim warrior has to be built with hammers. The upgrade from warrior to PZ is not free and costs the AI gold that has to come from somewhere. Once they have Bronze working the Sheaim seems to build PZ in their cities rather than warriors and upgrade them like a human might. Furthermore, the hammer cost and the upgrade costs of PZs to the Sheaim are dependent on the difficulty level so what do you suggest is a meaningful method for comparison that is not unduly complicated?

 

[JonathanStrange]

The strongest reason for my not buying the laundry lists of "why the Sheaim are so fiercesome" is my own experience in well over a hundred games on all difficulty levels, maps, and starting civs. I've fought the Sheaim and led the Sheaim. I've had them as next-door neighbors and distant rivals on other continents. I've not seen them more successful than half a dozen other civs. Some games they're wet firecrackers and others they set the world on fire.

The PZ is one of the funnest and most interesting military unit around and one can do all sorts of calculations to show that in their class, they're outstanding. I certainly wouldn't want my nation too close to a well-organized Sheaim or to fall too far behind in research against them - but I could say the same about a number of other aggressive civs.

This is not to say the PZs aren't useful to wield against the less well-prepared or the SOL nation but I think some may be getting too close to saying "Get the PZ and its all over save the burning." They're a tool, sometimes useful, sometimes not.

 

[Emptiness]

Instead of making ignorant quibbling about my methods why not actually do some tests yourself and present them? Who knows you might learn something.

The burden of proof is on you, because you are the one trying to change how people view Pyre Zombies. I don't need to do any testing to convince the community to consider Pyre Zombies a serious threat, because (with a few exceptions) they already do.

You claim to have done extensive testing, but then instead of presenting the details of your method and the full results of your tests you expect people to be swayed by an anecdotal summary of your results. My comments were made to encourage you to support your claim more effectively (and thus convincingly), but it's your viewpoint and you are free to argue for it as ineffectually as you like.

 

[DaveGold]

The upgrade from warrior to PZ is not free and costs the AI gold that has to come from somewhere.

No it doesn't. In one game I settled first turn on a nice flood plain and the Sheaim settled the following turn right next to me. I lacked grace so with the close borders etc. war looked pretty inevitable. Since I was the Balseraph I tried out Loki and turned over a couple of their cities as they spread out. This turned out to be a mistake as the warriors who were in those cities just joined the Sheaim warrior stack. I developed bronze working before the Sheiam but before I'd build a single swordsman/freak the Sheaim had promoted all their warriors up and attacked me with 17 pyre zombies straight onto my capital. All over save the burning.

 

[UncleJJ]

No it doesn't.

Not sure what this means. Are you suggesting that the upgrade of 17 warriors is free? That is the literal meaning of your denial.

I know the AI gets significant discounts on the upgrading of troops. In BtS I believe that is limited to a 50% discount, regardless of difficulty level. FfH2 may be different and have larger discounts. I would be grateful if anyone can give me the AI discounts on upgrades, varying with difficulty level, if applicable.

The basic cost of upgrading a warrior to a PZ is 75 gold, so 17 upgrades is worth 1275 gold. How much would the AI Sheaim pay for this?

Incidentally, do you think the result would have been different if the 17 PZ were replaced by axemen? Would you have lost your capital to a stack of 17 axes that early?

I've been fortunate enough never to have faced that many PZs that early in the game. What level was that game and what patch? What could you have used to fight them that early? However, I don't think swords or freaks would be any better than warriors and the situation sounds hopeless.

 

[DaveGold]

The basic cost of upgrading a warrior to a PZ is 75 gold, so 17 upgrades is worth 1275 gold. How much would the AI Sheaim pay for this?

Not much. The AI will typically upgrade 20 units over about 3 turns. I can remember those BTS archers turning into longbowmen in a very annoying fashion too so I don't think it's a FFH issue.

What level was that game and what patch? What could you have used to fight them that early? However, I don't think swords or freaks would be any better than warriors and the situation sounds hopeless.

Emporer. Yes it was pretty hopeless. Anything that could have been done probably needed hindsight. Other nations can knock you out quickly too but the Sheaim are the hardest to deal with.