Thoughts on Imperialistic and Expansive traits?

[blitzkrieg1980]

exactly. Each GG may be worth more experience, but the imperialistic leader gets double the points for the entire game. And if you win a tough battle which would normally be worth 3 experience points, the imperialistic leader gets 6. This means that at the very least the imperialistic leader requires half the # of battles that a non-imp leader needs for each GG.

I.E. (and these numbers are just for comparison)
1st GG: 100 points (50 1 exp battles for imp, 100 1 exp battles for non)
2nd GG: 200 points (100 " " for imp, 200 " " " for non)
3rd GG: 400 points (200 " " for imp, 400 " " " for non)

see the pattern?

although, I think I might have mis-wrote in prior post that you literally get double the generals. Perhaps not literally double, but with battles more than 1 exp point, you'll get a lot more. 8 in a game where 5 should only have been received makes imperialistic a worthy trait even without the weak settler bonus.

 

[seasnake]

This weekend I did a little tinkering with the XML, and I made a few changes to buff Imperialistic: Namely, GG's can now start golden ages and double production of stables, jails. It's a lot of fun to play now, but I still think its balanced with the others.
Expansive is fine for the health, I'll probably bump up worker production again to 50, made expansive pretty great.

 

[Welnic]

Each great general that you get costs the same amount extra that the first one costs. So lets set the cost of the first great general to 1. Whatever speed that you play at this actual value will differ. It's 30 for normal and 45 for epic. The second general cost 60 in normal and 90 in epic. In both cases the way this is set up below the first general costs 1, the second 2, the third 3, and so on.

GG points per GG:
01 03 06 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 014 015


GG points_______GGs
normal/imp______normal/imp

.5/1____________0/1
1/2_____________1/1
1.5/3___________1/2
3/6_____________2/3
5/10____________2/4 double!
6/12____________3/4
7.5/15__________3/5
10/20___________4/5
10.5/21_________4/6
14/28___________4/7
15/30___________5/7
18/36___________5/8
21/42___________6/8
22.5/45_________6/9
27.5/55_________6/10
28/56___________7/10
33/66___________7/11
36/72___________8/11
39/78___________8/12
45/90___________9/12
45.5/91_________9/13
52.5/105________9/14
55/110__________10/14
60/120__________10/15
66/132__________11/15


I use the trait when my favorite leader, Random, happens to have it. I've just calculated the math involved in generating GGs, I'm not emotionally against the trait or anything.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Got ya. Thanks for the chart! Nice work. Yeah, I posted that I got more like 8 Generals where I woulda had 5 with a non-imperialistic leader which you have on your chart. That's 6 more experience points than a non-imp would have! I do agree that it needs another bonus besides the settler. You can even get rid of that bonus if it makes way for a better bonus (ie cheap airports or half unhealth for having power)

 

[seasnake]

I like the settlers, they're a good way to build your early empire quickly and then you build up your cities over time. They lose some use later, but it's a good way to start.

 

[Legal_My_Deagle]

I really don't care for Imperialistic, but I really enjoy Expansive lately.

I like being able to take those good resource heavy but otherwise expensive jungle cities that nobody else wants during the lab grab expansion phase of the game, and over all it is a fantastic boost because more health = much faster population growth (especially early on in game) which means more population, which means more yield and most imporantly more whipping. Especially with the cheap granaries and other awesome cheap buildings.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually both traits are weakened because of.. well it really is a bug even if Firaxis calls it a "Feature"

Food used to produce Workers or Settlers doesn't get bonuses.

Food used to produce population gets bonused by a granary

Hammers used to produce Workers or Settlers gets bonused by traits, Forges, Factories, etc.

Food NEEDS to get a bonus just like hammers do... this would make imperialistic great in the early game allowing you to pump out settlers very quickly letting you use more hammers and ood for developing those cities/armies.

The reason this is a bug is because it means that whipping and chopping Settlers becomes overvalued.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Great Generals aren't able to start Golden Ages or be used to get free techs because they're not generated with Great People Points like all the other Great People are. They're generated with an entirely separate pool of points, so giving them the same abilities unbalances things.

 

[Terrance888]

They should be able to be generated by regular ways.... like by west point and all the good military stuff.... and they should be able can give back by being able to rush them. or even say that they can generate GPP but only a battle can make there expertice realized..... like you needd and extra battle xp and the others are used for the next one.............. GG Cascade ppls!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A few other ways to improve Imperialistic (besides fixing the Food bug)

1. Revise the Military Academy, make it available early...with a +35% military production... Military Science would bring it up to +75%

2. To keep that significant, change the Heroic Epic so that it only provides +25% Military production... BUT it also gives 1 Great General Point for every unit produced there.

3. Leaders need to be improved by having them give 30 or 40 experience (and possibly a Free promotion for the attatched unit)

 

[zenspiderz]

While of course it is correct that double GG points does not mean double the number of Great Generals because each time you pop a great general the threashold goes up; it has been overlooked by previous posters that GG points are accumulated through successful combats.. so better promoted and more numerous troops from extra GG will win MORE battles resulting in more GGP.. So in the end it may be through excessive warring that you DO get something like or close to 100% more GG out of the +100% GG points. See? Call it a positive feed back loop.

For this reason imperialist gets stronger as the game progresses whereas agg, pro, and even char tend to become more dilute with time.. NOT saying that makes imp better than agg or char because what is better tends to depend on player skill, style and other assorted circumstances.. Like the portugal civ is rubbish on pangea but great on continents, terra and similar..

As to how imperialistic could be improved? I think given that real empires tended to rely heavily on the ruthless suppression of dissent and rebellion among the conquored peoples through torture, detention centres, secret police etc. (British empire being the ultimate example) half revolt time would be appropriate or maybe cheap jails and intelligence agencies for example.. Would be better than the settler bonus and much more appropriate.

 

[seasnake]

Half revolt time is a wonderful thing. I'm just not sure how to make that happen. It's easy to do things like double buildings, but hard to create new behaviors if something else can't do it already.
BTW, didn't great artists used to be able to end revolts in cities? Now that would be good to have back.
Still, I think having GGs produce GA is actually spot on. Usually a nations real life Golden Age corresponds to their military prowess in some fundamental way, and when guys like Oliver Cromwell show up and do their thing, England gains. Just like Cortes and Spain, his emergence as a general meant wealth and power for the motherland.
Either way, a few tweaks have made a ho-hum trait a ton of fun. I highly recommend it to anyone who just can't seem to get into Imperialist civs.

 

[Jabarto]

This weekend I did a little tinkering with the XML, and I made a few changes to buff Imperialistic: Namely, GG's can now start golden ages and double production of stables, jails. It's a lot of fun to play now, but I still think its balanced with the others.
Expansive is fine for the health, I'll probably bump up worker production again to 50, made expansive pretty great.

I'm considering changing the Expansive trait, myself. Can you tell me which file I need to change?

The reason this is a bug is because it means that whipping and chopping Settlers becomes overvalued.

Balance issues =/= bugs.

 

[seasnake]

I'm considering changing the Expansive trait, myself. Can you tell me which file I need to change?

The forums on creation and customization are the best, but I can state a couple of basic ideas I had and tried:

First and foremost, never change anything without copying the the Civ4\BeyondtheSword\assets folder. Save your copy as something like BackupAssets. That way if you make the game unplayable by goofing around, you can delete your project and change the name from BackupAssets to Assets and the game will run the unchanged assets now.

Open files in notepad to edit

It's basically a matter of reading through the XML files and making decisions. The helpful files are Civ4\BeyondtheSword\assets\xml\units\civ4UnitInfos; Civ4\BeyondtheSword\assets\xml\buildings\civ4buildingInfos; and C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\technologies\civ4techinfos.

These allow to modify units, buildings, and techs as you want. If you know you want a certain effect, find something else that does what you want and make similiar changes to the unit/tech/building in question.

For example, I've long felt that Divine Right should grant a great prophet, because it was the only GP not acquired by a tech and it gives something good to beeline it (well, I love Versailles, but still).

So, I went into the technologies/civ4techinfo folder, and looked up music because I know music grants a great artist. About the 12th line down in the text I saw <FirstFreeUnitClass>UNITCLASS_ARTIST</FirstFreeUnitClass>. Ah! This is what I was looking for. This is what tells Music the first to earn it gets that artist. To confirm, I looked up Fusion, and found <FirstFreeUnitClass>UNITCLASS_ENGINEER</FirstFreeUnitClass> in the same place. So I knew the relevant thing to change now, so I found Divine Right, sure enough there was a line<FirstFreeUnitClass>NONE</FirstFreeUnitClass> and I changed that to UNITCLASS_PROPHET. And it worked.

So anyway, in short, if you want to add abilities look at units/techs/buildings that can do what you want (trade routes, extra commerce, etc.) and then make similar changes. In this way I've made the following tweaks:

Great generals can start golden ages (to give Imp civs some help).
Double production of stables (ger) and jail (mausoleum) for Imperialistic leaders.
Ballista elephants now do collateral damage (minor, only 2 units per attack up to 30 percent). Gives them a little something extra.
Castles (citadel) now obsolete with chemistry.
Divine Right grants great prophet to the one who researches it first (Islam gets a shrine that way, or maybe you save it for a GA).
Expansive is 50 percent worker (fast worker) production bonus, not 25.
Can't build Scotland Yard until you've researched printing press
Can't build Academy until you've researched literature

I'm not trying to change the game play, I think the game is well balanced. I'm just trying to tweak some balance and make all buildings/traits/units worthwhile if you want them. I'm thinking of making one more change to, you can't build nukes without a nuclear power plant in the city (I never build Nuclear plants, I usually have coal or hydro or Three gorges). Also, I may give Duns some spy points, because Guerrilla is pretty cool but seems lacking. The other weak UB, Citadel, I already took care of. I don't think Shale plants are weak at all because power without coal is useful and there is a small hammer bonus.

Anyway, read the creation/customization forums and they'll steer you better than I can. Just don't forget to save a copy of a the original assets folder, that's the key for not having to reinstall BTS if you get carried away.

EDIT: Gave Nuclear plants a free scientist specialist and gave Duns 10 percent espionage defense. I only have one more project and then I can play my retooled game ... A special forces unit for paratroopers/marines to evolve into. After that, I think we have a balanced game ...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Balance issues =/= bugs.

Its not a balance issue, its a micromanagement issue, allowing you to get more production one way than another. (like earlier bugs with whipping/overflow, etc.)

 

[Indiansmoke]

It is the same with philosophical, you don't get double GP either.

 

[hoopsnerd]

I really don't care for Imperialistic, but I really enjoy Expansive lately.

I like being able to take those good resource heavy but otherwise expensive jungle cities that nobody else wants during the lab grab expansion phase of the game, and over all it is a fantastic boost because more health = much faster population growth (especially early on in game) which means more population, which means more yield and most imporantly more whipping. Especially with the cheap granaries and other awesome cheap buildings.

Yeah, in my opinion the REAL strength of Expansive is cheap graneries for more whipping. Whipping workers is also slightly cheaper, so that helps also.

 

[Jabarto]

Open files in notepad to edit

That was informative, thank you. I'll be sure to check out the cutomization forum you spoke of, as well.

allowing you to get more production one way than another.

Isn't that the definition of a balance issue? Unless it's the result of an error in the programming, I don't see how it's a bug.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ The programming error is that food is not put into the right place when production is calculated.. unlike every other form of getting hammers (chopping, whipping, regular production, overflow) are all added into base hammers.

 

[Scaramanga]

Imperialistic is not about building 200 settlers at +50%.
Its about the first 1-3.
Founding your second city while your opponent still needs 20 turns for his settler will give you an edge over anyone, since you now have twice as many cities.

You should be able to grind out 4 cities when they have 2, then slow progress to develop.

Also, together with great wall wonder thats +200% general emerge.
A general in every city makes 5 XP with barracks.

I agree. Imperialistic is not about getting exactly 100% more great generals or settler spamming like crazy over the course of a game. It's about getting those things first and then using your lead to shut down the competition.