Thoughts on Trade

[Kev]

I did some searching through the forums looking for some specific information on trade, but it still left me with a few questions (making me feel like a bit of a beginner).

I've often been one of those players who sends a majority of outgoing caravans and freight through my sicence city, gain support from that city, and then send it off to trade. The money garnered from these trades was usually superior as my SCC was usually qutie large and... well... full of science.

Yet, I've come to see (verified I think by others in these forums) that any city will only be able to carry 3 trade routes - the computer establishing the 3 most lucrative as the ones that remain. (Again this is dealing with outgoing freight - I know that there can be 3 incoming as well)

I began to think that in the long run, (as an example) if I were to build 20 caravans and have 19 be supported by my science city, that I would still only yield 4 long-term trade routes (3 best from the SCC and one extra). The money and the tech boosts would be nice short term, but would I have been better off establishing 20 different routes that would add arrows to many different cities and hopefully grow as the cities grow?

I'd love to hear (read) some thoughts from some trade gurus out there - it really is a part of my game that I would like to improve. I guess my questions in a nutshell are:

1. Better to support all trade from science city, have all cities support own trade, or some combination of the two?
2. I know the money would be different if the vehicle is from a large, science-producing city, but is the one-time tech boost vastly different - is it enough to compensate for possible long-term loss?

Thanks in advance!

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[BlueMonday]

I like to divide em all up and have every city with three trade routes. I guess if you have a small civ then using your trade city as a medium for all caravans isn't a bad option at all, but I usually have many many cities. If I have thirty cities I can have ninety trade routes. Even if each route is small (say three or four trade arrow bonuses) that's the addition of 270 trade arrows which can be used for anything. It is my opinion that ninety small routes is better than three large routes.

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[starlifter]

As you gain more medium sized cities, those cities need trade routes... the effect on the empire is considerable. I am careful with the most valuable commodities, and often make a naval strategy that will ensure delivery of those valuable caravans/freight to the best overseas cities.

I use the junk commmodities as the source for the routes with my smaller cities. The smallest cities usually don't get trade routes, unless it is essential for the city to grow.

Generally, I have a pretty tough rule that cities don't do trade until the have the proper improvements, namely Superhighways and Airport, assuming those have been discovered. That maximizes the bonus and route value... and those improvements are rushed on the turn they are discovered... the results fund the rush cost.

 

[dreadhead7]

I make sure that all of my cities have trade routes, both domestic and foreign. However, I save the most lucrative routes (the ones with foreign cities on another continent on the other side of the map) for my science city.

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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[willemvanoranje]

Well, I rarely build caravans a lot. I build a few of them for trade with other civs, but most of them are for wonder building. I once had a revenue of 912 don't know if that's high. The poor caravan left in 2000 B.C. and arrived somewhere between 800-1200 A.D.

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through every dark night,
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[Supernaut]

While it's not worth having all your trade from the SSC, it could be worth some of your cities trading with the SSC rather than other civs. This is because the value of the convoy is based on the trade in both cities. So even though the trade route established may not be big enough to benefit the SSC, it could be the best option for the other city.

 

[Sukenis]

Reading some post on trade has confused me somewhat. I read post saying that players are waiting until they have superhighways and such before doing trade. Is this really good. I know they boost your trade bonus, but is it not better to have the trade for all the extra years and get them established ASAP than to wait until you have all the "high trade" city improvements?

 

[thedirk]

I always make trade a high priority. Whenever a city with less than 3 trade routes is not absolutely needed to make an improvement or other unit, it builds caravans/freight. Even if the trade route only produces one trade arrow and produces an up front revenue of 5-10 gold, in the long run the trade route will grow as the cities grow. Every arrow you can get is all the better for you. So I would definitely recommend building trade routes between all your cities, based on supply and demand of commodities.

 

[Kev]

OK, it would seem from the answers that if one wants to have each route responsible for additional "trade arrows" then the object should be to have most or all caravans/freight remain supported by their host city.

I have a follow-up to anyone who is still reading this thread.

Is the tech bonus different depending on the supporting city? In other words, if a caravan is supported from my science city with tons of trade, is the bonus toward my next tech better than if it was supported from a smaller, less "tradeful" city. This is to assume that all other factors are equal (demanded item, same destination city, destination city probably has no airport, etc.).

It would seem that if there is a difference, then late in the game when I am busting through the techs and the extra arrows are not as important, then it would make sense to then filter all trade through the science city. If the tech boost is the same, then I guess it would be business as usual.

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[woke25]

Originally posted by BlueMonday:
I like to divide em all up and have every city with three trade routes. I guess if you have a small civ then using your trade city as a medium for all caravans isn't a bad option at all, but I usually have many many cities. If I have thirty cities I can have ninety trade routes. Even if each route is small (say three or four trade arrow bonuses) that's the addition of 270 trade arrows which can be used for anything. It is my opinion that ninety small routes is better than three large routes.

i beg to differ. its better to have a few huge cities and make trade routes with them. even after you have 3 trade routes, you still have to use the big cities to make trade routes with foreign countries, just for the bonus tech and gold.

a huge city of 20+ can give you over a 1000 gold or maybe 2000 gold and equal amount of science beakers.

if you have a few big cities of 20-30 size, all maximum improvements in it, with 300 trade is far better then many small ones.

really, who can keep up with you if you get 2000 gold and beakers from every trade route you make? thats about 10.000 every turn?



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Woke23

Civ Fanatics Ladder Operator

 

[BlueMonday]

It certainly is much better to have several large cities with monster trade routes, but in my previous post I was referring to the fact that he has ONE big trade city. I feel that if you have one monster trade city and twenty or thirty smaller cities it's better to develop trade across the board and as your cities grow, develop them into monsters. Why wait years untill all your cities are giants to develop trade?

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[Smash]

What happens if you are not permitted to deliver cargo?
This is quite possible in MP games.Someone may decide to send all your transport vessels to the Davy Jones" Locker

Trade internally ASAP in MP games.Later,establish foreign routes with allies or what have you.Allies are better obviously.I've actually seen a competitor starve and disband a size 12 city my cap had 3 routes with

people do the darnest things

 

[Supernaut]

Originally posted by Kev:
Is the tech bonus different depending on the supporting city? In other words, if a caravan is supported from my science city with tons of trade, is the bonus toward my next tech better than if it was supported from a smaller, less "tradeful" city. This is to assume that all other factors are equal (demanded item, same destination city, destination city probably has no airport, etc.).

The tech bonus is the same as the amount of gold you receive, which is dependent on the amount of trade in the cities at either end. So yes, the SSC would produce a bigger bonus. Even so, I would still recommend setting up three trade routes from each of your cities (in most circumstances).

 

[starlifter]

posted June 25, 2001 09:22 AM by Sukenis:

Reading some post on trade has confused me somewhat. I read post saying that players are waiting until they have superhighways and such before doing trade. Is this really good. I know they boost your trade bonus, but is it not better to have the trade for all the extra years and get them established ASAP than to wait until you have all the "high trade" city improvements?

My post was sub-par, and failed to explicitly explain timing... which is confusing now that I have revisited this thread several days later.

In the early phases of the game, my core empire will do trade with the Colossus city (or a max-trade city if don't have Colossus). Since I don't pursue a trireme strategy, my overseas trade in early years is likely nil... so I take the 50% hit on trade with my own cities. Most routes are internal, and produce several trade arrows with the Colossus city. Republic, Silk, and Whales are especially useful to get your source arrows high.... and if Colossus is not in your capital, give it a courthouse to cut corruption by 50%. In early game, it is a tightrope act to decide whether some caravans should build a wonder or start a route… you need the 'feel' of the game for those situations, e.g., where you science beakers stand, how much gold you need to bribe, where the AI civs are in their wonders, etc.

By the time navigation is reached, things might start to get into gear with caravels. Find an overseas Republic, with a large city that has roads and/or what you know to be good trade terrain. Set up a ship chain, and deliver caravans to it. I won't get into the usual algorithms, math, and formulas here, but just try to max the distance, get Magellan's, and locate a few ripe foreign cities. Peace is nice to have at this point in the game, BTW... at least in the oceans where you are running a few trade routes.

War can stunt this process... if that happens, you should definitely set up a ship chain so your caravans are not sunk at sea. Ship chains are expensive... a major 20 ship chain can cost 800 shields to build, about the cost of a mid-game wonder. And caravels can cause unhappiness in a Republic. You'll "typically" need about 12-18 ships for a decent chain, with a few for branch routes and backup. Caravans can be 'pulsed' through the chain, and on the next turn the ships can be re-positioned for another delivery cycle. Often, you can pre-position some caravans in AI territory, perhaps with a musketeer defending on a road just outside a delivery city's radius. This buildup can ensure a good selection of caravans to properly balance the beaker production. You can easily gain from 500 to 4,000 gold and science in a single turn, but more than about 1,000 in a single turn at this point in the game will result in wasted beakers.

After Navigation, the next key advance is RR… watch out! RR cuts the value of caravan bonuses. Also, Flight will cut freight (and obsolete caravan) bonuses. As I approach Automobile, I quit delivering freight (but still pre-position it in AI territory, and defend it with forts/mountains/roads/vets, if necessary) unless I have to to ensure tech advances or get gold for something essential. Bigger cities switch to some junk city improvement and build a few shields a couple turns before Auto, and when I discover Auto... bam... the most important trade cities get Superhighways immediately, or incrementally rushed up to 160 shields, if the city can pump out 40 net shields per turn. Then the next turn, my pre-constructed (and pre-positioned, hopefully) freight are given the green light to resume deliveries. This is what I meant when I talked about limiting my cities on trade based on improvements. You may or may not know, but the bonus is increased by 50% if the source city has SH's. On a typical freight worth, say 1200, that means withholding delivery of that freight for a couple turns until the home city has a SH will give you 600 extra gold and 600 extra science. A single, well delivered freight can thusly pay for a rushed SH. The science is gravy.

BTW, the value of the recurring trade route is increased by 50% for a SH, too. But it does not matter when the route was established... routes existing before you built SH's will be bumped 50%, too, so don't worry.

Note: a SH in the destination city does not yield an explicit bonus, but of course, it will likely boost both the bonus and route value, depending on specific terrain worked by destination citizens and form of government.

About airports: If both cities have an airport, you get a 50% increase in both the bonus and route value. If only one city has an airport, there is no effect. This is why I make it mandatory in late game trading (*especially* with my own cities) that both cities have airports or I don't waste a 2,000 gold freight on the route. In some games, I may have so many freight that it is not a factor, however... By that I mean, I usually deliver enough freight to reach the number of science beakers that will cause an advance on the next turn. Civ II will not let you get an advance in the middle of a turn, no matter how many freight you deliver... so once you reach, say 2,500 beakers (assuming that is the cost of the next advance), all subsequent freight deliveries get you the gold bonus only... the science beakers are "lost". you might as well save the freight and deliver it on the nest turn, so you get the beakers. It usually takes about 3 to 5 freight delivered to my own cities, or about 2 to 4 delivered to foreign cities to max the beakers at this stage in the game (an SP game).

Once you have airports, trade is faster because you can simple airlift the freight to all or most of your own cities, and deliver it one turn later. War with enemies that have fighters may limit safe airlift of freight to some of your cities, however.


So here is the bottom line... set up all the trade you can manage, based on the game you're playing. But push hard on it and take risks (you may lose a few here and there), and you'll have a technology edge that will end the game hundreds of year sooner. As you can generate enough surplus caravan/freight to make routes even for your new, small cities (mid/late game), great... but balance that with the wonder race.

 

[starlifter]

posted June 25, 2001 06:24 PM by Smash:
What happens if you are not permitted to deliver cargo? This is quite possible in MP games.Someone may decide to send all your transport vessels to the Davy Jones" Locker

Trade internally ASAP in MP games.Later,establish foreign routes with allies or what have you.Allies are better obviously.I've actually seen a competitor starve and disband a size 12 city my cap had 3 routes with

people do the darnest things

With the prior notice that I'm not a MP player, I will say that I would not allow a non-ally to engage in the typical trade strategy that I normally do against the AI in an SP game. If someone tried it, it would be war. Their ships and incoming caravans would be toast... I would seek and destroy links in their chain. Caravans/freight are much too valuable to allow an enemy to deliver them. If a cease-fire or peace is in effect, hehe... it would not last long.

 

[woke25]

Originally posted by Smash:
What happens if you are not permitted to deliver cargo?
This is quite possible in MP games.Someone may decide to send all your transport vessels to the Davy Jones" Locker <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>

Trade internally ASAP in MP games.Later,establish foreign routes with allies or what have you.Allies are better obviously.I've actually seen a competitor starve and disband a size 12 city my cap had 3 routes with <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>

people do the darnest things

Yes, ofcourse you have to protect your caravans. over sea you can do this by building the lighthouse, which give you veteran triremes.

Over land is harder, you need to have units stacked on mountains in fortresses. from there you can move the caravans in. Just that it is really hard to trade with hostile oponents, doesnt mean you shouldnt. If you can get 2000 gold and beakers per trade route, it is worth some effort. even in duels.


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Woke23

Civ Fanatics Ladder Operator

 

[Andu Indorin]

Two Thoughts on Trade ...

(mainly adding some points to what starlifter has posted above, who has covered most of the points):

On Trade Routes:

First and foremost, Trade is the basis of one's income/science/luxury taxes; ergo, it is worthwhile for every city to have a maximum number of trade routes. It is for this reason that I consider trade routes to be the first "city improvement." In general, I try to establish trade routes before I build marketplaces and the like; the extra trade makes these city improvements even more valuable.

Starlifter is correct in dividing the Trade paradigm into historical ages. In my games, the principal division is pre-Automobile trade and post-Automobile trade. (The second principal division is when the trade bonuses cease with the aquisition of relatively high Future Tech, usually beyond FT 50). And since the Colossus is my #1 priority among the ancient wonders, prior to the discovery of the Automobile, I will habitually orient all trade routes from other cities to the Colossus. Some may question the cost effectiveness this ploy, since it requires building more caravans to get these trade routes established. But since I usually do not expand past 15 or so cities by 1500 a.d., this is not too much of a problem; and with Colossus city at full employment (20+ population), and the remaining cities at a population of 8+ and more, the effects of the Colossus add between one and three extra trade arrows per route per city. Over the long run, I consider this to be sufficiently cost effective to warrant orienting all trade routes through the city with the Colossus.

Once the automobile is discovered (and the Colossus expires with flight), it is sometimes more worthwhile to regionalize one's trade routes; but such regionalization is best when the nexus city of these regionalized trade regions have a trade potential at least equal to the original Colossus city; and they can be connected by road/rail (i.e., on the same continent). Otherwise, since the original Colossus city is already sited on an ideal trade location, it is just as often not going to be worth the effort of reestablishing such trade routes.

On the Trade Bonus:

The other issue that governs one's trade policy is the trade bonus; and central to this issue is the temptation to maximize the one time bonus by trading with an enemy civilization. The real draw back to this ploy is that by using enemy cities to maximize the trade bonus, you are also increasing the trade -- and therefore, the science research -- of that enemy civilization; this is especially true if you are basing these caravans/freight in your Colossus city. In an OCC game, this ploy is both a necessity and entirely worthwhile; but in a game of conquest, I've reached the conclusion that I will only trade with enemy cities that I plan to conquer in the very near future. (In fact, I usually try to include a number of caravan/freight units in every invasion that I conduct.)

Otherwise, I try to establish a reciprocal trade situtation between a few of my largest cities on one continent and my Colossus city another. Here managing the Colossus city's demand is important. With experience one finds that when one trades one demanded commodity, it ends demand for that commodity but will open up demand for a second commodity; and then by trading that second commodity, it will open up the first commodity; and finally, one both commodities are no longer in demand, you can trade a useless commodity for the minimum bonus, and this will usually open up demand of either of the two original commodities. (The same is true of the reverse trade pattern from the Colossus to other cities). As long as my cities are capable of supplying the commodities that garner the full bonus of a demanded commodity, then I find that repeatedly trading between my Colossus city and my other cities is always cost effective, picking up a clear financial profit for initially building the caravans, plus the immediate bonus to whatever I'm producting. And therefore, I usually do not need to pursue the maximum bonus of trading with an enemy civilization.

 

[starlifter]

There are some strategies to deal with the issue of giving the enemy too much trade by delivering your caravans to their cities. Mathematically, it can get complex, and doubtless many experienced players already have a general "feel" for the tradeoffs (no pun intended?

).

But skipping my usual math analysis for the moment, I'll just summarize and explain a few generalizations for an average mid-late game empire.

I'll find the most distant civ(s), and thoroughly investigate them as far as growth, city sizes, progress of roads, access, improvements, and especially the basic trade of the cities. I'll locate one or two or maybe 3 cities that will become my Target Cities (TCs). Ideally, those cities already have 3 good trade routes with other civs. Normally, I like to have at least two road/RR/ocean routes for a caravan/freight to reach the TC(s), so my incoming hordes of freight will not get jammed up when the AI leaves an engineer, unit, or something blocking the primary road/access.

If I can keep peace with the target civ, great. I'll even send my own engineers in to help their stupid engineers put roads on all the rivers, plains, grassland, etc... anything to increase the base trade of my chosen TC. It usually takes a one of my spies to lead the way through the ZOCs to get the roads built.

It is not uncommon for me to reposition the AI's workers onto the best trade terrain, too. It won't work if you're allied, but I'm never allied at that point in the game anyway. While making the AI citizens do your bidding is not the topic here, it is worth noting that it takes spies and military units to re-arrange the enemy citizens working on terrain within their city radius.

Anyway, once everything is set up, massive amounts of freight from all over the empire begin funneling their way onto a network of transports, and piling up in roaded (later, RR'd) fortresses just outside the TC's city radius. Several days' deliveries will be accumulated, in case the deliveries of freight are interrupted for some reason, (usually war and/or a sneak attack). This will also give a cushion for emergency cash, if necessary for bribing a juicy opportune city, for instance.

Part of the mid-game strategy is to keep the target civ in Republic (and later, Democracy) and out of Fundamentalism. It is sometimes possible to do this by nudging the AI into democracy, including giving them Democracy if Fundy is imminent. Try to keep them at peace with their neighbors, and give them minimal reason to deploy unhappiness-causing units to meet a 'threat' from your forces.

It is essential when Radio is discovered for you to either get the AI to build an airport in the TC, or choose a new TC with an airport and high trade. It is often advisable to give the AI radio... but don't delay... give it ASAP, so that critical airport gets built, or at least one gets built somewhere you can use.

Unless the commodity is exceptionally valuable (that is a discussion for another time), incoming freight will go to one of the TCs. As a guide, even an average salt/hides caravan should net from 800 to 1200 gold with the TC. By limiting the number of separate trade routes that you allow the AI cities to have with your empire, you can drastically limit the trade benefit to the enemy and get a monster return (over 3,000 gold every turn). Each of these routes should yield at least 26 trade, with 28 to 32 being common. The value of these routes are so great that typically that TC is the last or one of the very last enemy cities I conquer. When you take ownership of a heavily traded TC, you might have a 5-20% drop in yearly economic output, empirewide.

Typically, with about 100 cities, about 60% of them will eventually get 3 foreign routes. Those routes will all produce double or more, relative to a similar domestic route. The economic benefit is staggering, empire-wide. On average, you have 14*3=42 >extra< trade, every turn, in every big city. With city improvement multipliers in finance, that translates to 42*(0.7)*2.5=73 extra gold per large city per turn. If you have only 50 fully developed, suitable democratic cities… that is around 3,600 gold per turn (assuming 70% tax) in return for your skill in setting up a good TC...

Once you get the system going, it is not too hard to maintain a steady income, even in all-out war. Usually about 3 or 4 freight will be enough to get you an advance every turn by setting 0% science and having 2 or 3 scientists. With a tax emphasis, you can easily rush Superhighways, Airports, Banks, etc. and fund any combat units you desire.

Bottom line… many players might find 3,000 science and 25,000 gold (gross… 21,000 net) per turn useful. If so, careful trade is the way to go!

 

[starlifter]

By Kev:

Yet, I've come to see (verified I think by others in these forums) that any city will only be able to carry 3 trade routes - the computer establishing the 3 most lucrative as the ones that remain. (Again this is dealing with outgoing freight - I know that there can be 3 incoming as well)

Clarification about the part, "there can be 3 incoming as well"...

The way the programs tracks trade, there is no upper limit on incoming trade routes to a city. I've had over 200 routes into a Target City, from dozens of my own cities. The computer program simply has byte space allocated to store three routes, and any routes that are less valuable at the instant they are established are not stored for the TC. If a new route makes the top 3 of the source city, then it is stored in one of the three slots for the source city.

This method keeps the programming relatively simple and elegant, and reduces the memory footprint. However, it can have dire implications if your SSC is delivering new commodities to cities that you are rapidly conquering... so always check the SCC's current 3 routes, and be prepared to instantly establish a new route if you note one of those 32 arrow routes has dropped to 16, for example.

Note: in late game, the SSC and generated science will likely be irrelevant, if you are using freight and settled into researching a leisurely one tech per turn. If you're demanding 2 techs (or 3 or 4) researched per turn, you'll need to watch all your route values, esp. the SSC, very carefully.

 

[HIEROPHANT]

i use carvans mainly for civ score.