Tips for modern naval combat tactics

[SJN]

If you want to take a city (that's why you are blockading it right?), be quick and decisive. Bomb the daylights out of its defenses, then do an amphibious assault with marines, seals, or amphibious upgraded (Mech) Inf.
Alternatively, suicide a lot of artillery (without amphibious) and then ride in the tanks amphibiously (without the promotion, but that doens't matter anymore).

The fleet that was just threatening yours? Gone. The easiest way to kill ships is if they are still in port.

Basically, in the modern age, your first strike must completely cripple the enemy's war effort. Learn from the modern American military commanders in this.

Ok, so this is the same advice I'm getting from everybody. Basically what you're saying is you can't blockade. That's fine. I understand this.

But what if an enemy has more coastal cities than I can reasonably invade in a single turn? I might want to contain a fleet rather than letting it slip out to pillage my tiles, or run hit and fade attacks.

I think this question is worth answering and I'm still looking into it.

-- SJN

 

[agentsmith952]

Yeah, This doesn't work if they're *in* the city. That's where things fell apart for me.

-- SJN

I missed that part.

My only other suggestion is to break your fleet into smaller groups. That way, collateral damage doesn't effect them as much and it would force an AI to attack multiple stacks.

On a side note, just like in real life, blockading isn't really effective if the naval powers are about equal. If you're getting so much collateral damage that you're missile destroyers are getting blown up by transports, then it sure seems like they are throwing a lot at you.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I agree, your question is worth answering. Let us know what you find out.

IF my game lasts that long, the enemy doesn't usually challenge me at seas- so I don't really have that much experience in this era,( and my usual solitions are mod-based , as mentioned ).

So what you're looking to do is contain the enemy in port until you're ready?


To me, there are two problems-

1) Hit and run attacks from the safety of the city by ships and aircraft.

2) Guided missiles that can't be countered.


That reminds me of trying to operate a privateer blockade when the enemy airships show up. What do you do in that situation? Note to self; change airships to require aluminum.

He has to see you before he can attack you.. Maybe your Stealth Destroyer idea is the thing.


I think I'd try placing a picket line of flanking/ visibillity promoted subs with missiles, near his coast , with missile cruisers further out as "linebackers".

OR

Since my coast is probably longer than his by now , bring my destroyer screen in, upgrade them to stealth, and use them instead of the subs.

 

[Wolfshanze]

That reminds me of trying to operate a privateer blockade when the enemy airships show up. What do you do in that situation? Note to self; change airships to require aluminum.

Requiring Aluminum for airships would make them obsolete before they could be built!

As it stands in default Civ, you just need PHYSICS and nothing else for Airships... that's ridiculous... you can have the enemy flying airships in the Renaissance easily.

To make it more realistic and better for gameplay, simply require airships to require PHYSICS + COMBUSTION... you could even tack-on OIL as a requirement too (to run the combustion engines which power the airship). That would put Airships squarely in the late industrial age for building purposes and just before the invention of powered flight (fighters being the natural counter). It makes for better history and better gameplay.

I already made the above changes in my Wollfshanze Mod... it plays-great in-game like that.

 

[Inky]

Attacking blockading ships from port isn't just a modern naval issue. Frigates can take out blockading frigates, and it is even harder to get enough promotions to ensure victory against each attacker.

Your blockade range is based on speed, so if you must blockade the city, try doing it from a distance. If your ships are faster than the enemy, you can ensure that they won't get a free trip back into the city after hitting yours, by standing off more than half their speed.

If you see the city with lots of naval units within, you have two basic options. First, blockade with units which are tough enough to likely win each engagement. Take Drill promotions to reduce collateral damage. Have at least as many ships as the enemy does. You'll win by attrition, as some of the enemy ships will die, rather than retreating to heal. And have enough replacement ships in production so as to maintain the blockade after losses. If the city has only one sea square exit, you can get away with using a single tough stack. If there are more exits, you'll have to rely on the enemy to engage your forces, or split them up. Either way, you won't have as much control over the enemy's actions.

Second, don't try to blockade closely. Give them space to sortie out to sea, where you can pound them to death. The naval blockade function is pretty powerful with modern ships -- subs and destroyers can do a great job, stealth destroyers are excellent for this. Knocking out all sea production and blocking trade routes can force the enemy to come out and play fair.

There is no way to harm ships in port, other than taking the city. Thus, invasion is the only sure way to eliminate an enemy fleet hiding in port. As far as I know, there is no mod or fix to let you damage ships inside a port.

 

[Wolfshanze]

There is no way to harm ships in port, other than taking the city. Thus, invasion is the only sure way to eliminate an enemy fleet hiding in port. As far as I know, there is no mod or fix to let you damage ships inside a port.

DCM & Merged Mod both allows you to bomb ships in-port.

 

[Inky]

Adding Stealth Destroyers and Submarines as blockaders has one weakness: When the enemy can't see them, they won't engage them. Their ships will sail right over them without stopping or fighting.

If they can see them, their aircraft can bombard them. If there are subs or destroyers in port, they'll be able to do so. Same if they have their own stealth destroyers.

Still, either are good for doing the blockade function, because they are harder to spot and engage. Subs do nicely from under ice squares, where only subs (or guided missiles) can engage them.

 

[SJN]

Attacking blockading ships from port isn't just a modern naval issue. Frigates can take out blockading frigates, and it is even harder to get enough promotions to ensure victory against each attacker.

But frigates don't give collateral damage. That's the real killer for me.

If I park my ships in front of an enemy city and his ships don't cause collateral damage, then as long as I have more ships, I will effectively cut him off.

But in my case, I had many more ships (and more highly promoted ships) than my opponent but it didn't matter. The collateral damage cut my forces down so that usually non-combatant ships (Transports) could clean up the pieces. Very, very annoying.

-- SJN

 

[Wolfshanze]

But frigates don't give collateral damage. That's the real killer for me.

If I park my ships in front of an enemy city and his ships don't cause collateral damage, then as long as I have more ships, I will effectively cut him off.

But in my case, I had many more ships (and more highly promoted ships) than my opponent but it didn't matter. The collateral damage cut my forces down so that usually non-combatant ships (Transports) could clean up the pieces. Very, very annoying.

-- SJN

What version of BtS are you playing? If I recall correctly, collateral damage was cut significantly in v3.17.

 

[SJN]

@wolfshanze

It's true, given all the negative stuff I was reading about the 3.17 patch, I never "updated".

-- SJN

 

[Wolfshanze]

There's nothing majorly wrong in v3.17 that wasn't already wrong in v3.13... personally, I think they fixed more from v3.13 then they broke in v3.17, so IMHO, there's no reason not to upgrade to v3.17.

I'm running a modified version of 3.17 myself, but even if you do nothing more then play vanilla BtS, I'd still recommend that folks should update to v3.17.

It will immediately "fix" the collateral damage from ships factor, as collateral damage from non siege units was pretty much nerfed.

 

[Al Capwn]

I'm also Playing Wolfshanze's Mod right now and I can attest that the new wealth of naval units makes naval combat much more enjoyable.

As to the OP...I agree that in order to effectively blockade without having your blockaders wiped out due to attack/collateral damage you would need to screen them from the port they are blockading so enemy ships can't sail out of their port, at their leisure, inflict massive amounts of collateral damage and sink your blockaders, and then just stroll back into the port without fear of retaliation. One poster (sorry forgot who) suggested using subs to screen your fleet (much like in real life!). Hmm...I was thinking that since they have a high chance of withdrawal this could help save them but withdrawal only works when attacking os that would ultimately lead just to a lot of *dead* subs...

Anyone ever thought of giving submarines a "Screen" ability that would allow them to withdraw on defense? The mechanics for this would probably be a nightmare but it would be coll and pretty realistic considering how submarines actually operated in WWII.

 

[SJN]

I'm also Playing Wolfshanze's Mod right now and I can attest that the new wealth of naval units makes naval combat much more enjoyable.

As to the OP...I agree that in order to effectively blockade without having your blockaders wiped out due to attack/collateral damage you would need to screen them from the port they are blockading so enemy ships can't sail out of their port, at their leisure, inflict massive amounts of collateral damage and sink your blockaders, and then just stroll back into the port without fear of retaliation. One poster (sorry forgot who) suggested using subs to screen your fleet (much like in real life!). Hmm...I was thinking that since they have a high chance of withdrawal this could help save them but withdrawal only works when attacking os that would ultimately lead just to a lot of *dead* subs...

Anyone ever thought of giving submarines a "Screen" ability that would allow them to withdraw on defense? The mechanics for this would probably be a nightmare but it would be coll and pretty realistic considering how submarines actually operated in WWII.

This was something I *really* liked about SMAC. Units with more than 1 movement point could withdraw from combat under certain circumstances. I think that this would make a great promotion line in Civ IV. What would you call it? Screen? Patrol? I kind of like patrol myself...

-- SJN

 

[Light-Giver]

Maybe blockade from a far distance, The tiles you blockade with each ship is alot, With just 4 or 5 ships you can encircle a city with blockade but be be far enough away that the ships cant return to the safty of port when they attack, Thats when you bash the heck out of his ships if he dose attack

I'm also Playing Wolfshanze's Mod right now and I can attest that the new wealth of naval units makes naval combat much more enjoyable.

As to the OP...I agree that in order to effectively blockade without having your blockaders wiped out due to attack/collateral damage you would need to screen them from the port they are blockading so enemy ships can't sail out of their port, at their leisure, inflict massive amounts of collateral damage and sink your blockaders, and then just stroll back into the port without fear of retaliation. One poster (sorry forgot who) suggested using subs to screen your fleet (much like in real life!). Hmm...I was thinking that since they have a high chance of withdrawal this could help save them but withdrawal only works when attacking os that would ultimately lead just to a lot of *dead* subs...

Anyone ever thought of giving submarines a "Screen" ability that would allow them to withdraw on defense? The mechanics for this would probably be a nightmare but it would be coll and pretty realistic considering how submarines actually operated in WWII.

I think the mecanism is already there, when i played vanilia civ 4 (or mabe civ 3) i remember calvary withdarawing on defence (ya i think its civ 3). This was realy anoying cause it was tough already as it is to chase withdrawing calavary with slower pikemen. If they could only get this code out of the old vault and apply it to subs it would be great

 

[Rusty Edge]

One poster (sorry forgot who) suggested using subs to screen your fleet (much like in real life!). Hmm...I was thinking that since they have a high chance of withdrawal this could help save them but withdrawal only works when attacking os that would ultimately lead just to a lot of *dead* subs...

Anyone ever thought of giving submarines a "Screen" ability that would allow them to withdraw on defense? The mechanics for this would probably be a nightmare but it would be coll and pretty realistic considering how submarines actually operated in WWII.

Well, my concept was to turn the tables . Observe and ambush-
allowing the enemy's hit and run in port fleet to slip out and stay out until my turn so that I could turn the tables and attack - first with missiles. Then, if I chose to attack with the subs, Flanking II gives a sub about an 80% withdrawal chance. Then let my cruisers mop them up.

I might even use an empty transport as bait for the ambush.

 

[Rusty Edge]

This was something I *really* liked about SMAC. Units with more than 1 movement point could withdraw from combat under certain circumstances. I think that this would make a great promotion line in Civ IV. What would you call it? Screen? Patrol? I kind of like patrol myself...

-- SJN

I've often wished for such an abillity. I don't know if it should be a promotion or a unit function ( alternative to fortify ).

Resist? Picket? Give Ground?

I'd have chosen withdrawal for the defensive act and skirmish or hit and run for the offensive.

How about Yield? Survive ?

Fade!

 

[NP300]

Ok, so this is the same advice I'm getting from everybody. Basically what you're saying is you can't blockade. That's fine. I understand this.

I created a mod where the invisibility of submarines is random. A destroyer has a certain probability of seeing a submarine, say 38%.

With my mod, I use submarines to blockade. Since SeeInvisible units only have a chance of seeing an invisible unit, it is quite viable to blockade an enemy with submarines (even if he has destroyers). I also beefed up subs a bit in my personal mod, which involved a general rebalancing of naval units.

I had an interesting war with Pacal II where I continued sending submarines to blockade him, and he kept frantically trying to see and kill my subs. I was able to starve down one of his coastal cities, so this can be quite powerful.

If you want to blockade with surface ships, I would send them in stacks of two, instead of in one gigantic stack. This way you can blockade more cities at once (by spreading out your units) and don't have a serious problem with collateral damage.

Also, keep in mind that ships have a blockade range of 3. This means that you can blockade 3 squares away from a city. At 3 squares away, the AI's units may not be able to see you (unless they have the sentry promotion). And if they can't see you, they may not attack. So you may want to try blockading farther away.

 

[NP300]

Your blockade range is based on speed, so if you must blockade the city, try doing it from a distance.

No, it's not. It is a flat 3, set in GlobalDefines.

Take Drill promotions to reduce collateral damage.

You are better off with combat I than with drill.

 

[TheDS]

The best defense for your situation is to bring overwhelming force. If you can bottle them up, you have to have more (and preferably more powerful) ships to keep them bottled up. You also need to be able to set up your corking fleet far enough away from their city so that if they come to attack you, they can't slip back into the city to hide and repair. This might mean you can't effectively bottle them in some cities.

One other thing to keep in mind is the 10% coastal defense bonus. Whenever possible, try to arrange it so that YOUR ships are sitting on a coastline to take advantage of the extra defense, but THEIR ships are out at sea so that when you counterattack, they don't get the bonus. Again, this isn't always possible.

If you cannot arrange to have more + better units doing the bottling, then you have to let them out and try to destroy them the hard way.

 

[SJN]

SJN, I think you might be interested in the Modpack I use, History in the Making , by Grave.

So, I went and looked up this mod. It says to play with 3.17 you have to have a 3.13 version of the executable?

Unfortunately I installed the patch already. I guess there aren't any work-arounds for already patched BtS?

-- SJN