Titles

[Genghis Khaiser]

I got this idea from Sword of Islam, so I thought it would be cool to have titles like in that mod.
The titles there are Commander of the Faith, Roman Emperor, Shahanshah, and so on. Each one has some requirements that give benefits and they can be transfered or lost. In SoI, they would be transferred to whoever met the requirements and/or vassalized the title's owner, and lost upon the owner's collapse or religion or civic switch (if required), but restored if someone else meets the requirements. This will be the case on this list unless otherwise stated.

Some ideas I have for them:

• Caliph. Be Muslim, own the Muslim Holy City. +5 Stability per Grand Mosque.
• Dalai Lama. Have Buddhism and three Great Prophets settled in Lhasa. +5 attitude from all civilizations. It is not transfered from vassals to masters.
• Ecumenical Patriarch. Be Orthodox and own at least two orthodox cathedrals. The title is lost when its owner collapses and no one else meets the requirement. +25% Research from any Cathedrals, +50% Research from Orthodox Cathedrals.
• Emperor of China. Have at least four cities in China and own all cities there. The title is lost upon entering the Global Era or upon China's independence or collapse or if it was vassalized.
• Emperor of India (or an equivalent thereof). Own all cities in the Indus and Ganges rivers as well as 90% of the Indian subcontinent's land and population. -50% unhappiness or loss of religion in your cities. If acquired through vassalization and the vassal acquires independence, the title is either lost or returned to the vassal if it meets the requirements.
• Great Khan. Own more cities than anyone in Mongolia and Central Asia. Mounted units get +100% experience. The title is transfered if someone else meets the requirements, it is lost in the Industrial Era.
• Leader of the Free World. Upon the construction of the United Nations, be the democratic civ with the largest economic and military power. Attracts immigration and/or can create Navy SEALs.
• Pharaoh. Be Pagan and own all cities in Egypt. Can always whip population OR the first wonder is free/cheap.
• Richest Man in the World. Have both the highest amount of gold and the highest gold output starting in the Industrial Era. Stock Exchanges give +1 trade route per culture level. The title is transfered to the next who meets the requirements.
• Roman Emperor. Own both Greece and Italy. +1 Experience per Stability level.
• Shahanshah. Own all cities in Persia/Iran while running Despotism or Monarchy with Zoroastrianism or Islam.
• Supreme Pontiff. Be the Pope and own the Apostolic Palace. +2 attitude from Catholic civs and/or can call for a Crusade. It is not transfered from vassals to masters.
• (Something about Communism). Be the largest civilization that runs Central Planning and Secularism. +2 attitude from communist nations OR +2 Science from Great Statesmen or Engineers.
• (Something about Fascism). Be the largest civ running Totalitarianism and State Party/Ideology without running Central Planning. All units have the Command promotion. The title is transfered upon the owners collapse, capitulation or changing of civics, and lost if no one meets the requirements.

 

[freethink]

I like the general concept, I can't say anything about how it could be written into the code. I can see how this adds into immersion, I am sure others will have their ideas about the details of the titles. One thing that has to be considered is balancing of course, this could embolden already powerful countries, but it can also allow for different playing styles. By giving distinct advantages to different kinds of nations. It would be nice if there could also be one Pre Columbian title included.

For Communism, I can see a title like this

'First General Secretary'

For Fascism, I can see one of two possibilities

Duce of Fascism- First Fascist State was in Italy
or
Guide of Fascism - This is more neutral towards nationalities

It would be interesting, in some cases if there could be wars for titles, but that might be buggy.
Of the top of my head, I can come up with another title
Holy Roman Emperor- For a powerful Catholic European state with cities in Italy.


One more nitpick I have is that I think the Emperor of China should be civic dependent if they keep the monarchy civic they should get to keep it. I don't think the collapse of the empire or emperors was preordained to happen entirely.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I like the general concept, I can't say anything about how it could be written into the code. I can see how this adds into immersion, I am sure others will have their ideas about the details of the titles. One thing that has to be considered is balancing of course, this could embolden already powerful countries, but it can also allow for different playing styles. By giving distinct advantages to different kinds of nations. It would be nice if there could also be one Pre Columbian title included.

It would require one that is not exclusive to one civ in practice and can be kept even after colonization. I can't come up with anything.

For Communism, I can see a title like this

'First General Secretary'

I like that suggestion. I also considered something related to the Comintern.

For Fascism, I can see one of two possibilities

Duce of Fascism- First Fascist State was in Italy
or
Guide of Fascism - This is more neutral towards nationalities

I considered "Reichsführer" but I thought that would be too specific, so I'm taking this one in the meantime.

It would be interesting, in some cases if there could be wars for titles, but that might be buggy.
Of the top of my head, I can come up with another title
Holy Roman Emperor- For a powerful Catholic European state with cities in Italy.

That pretty much was hold only by the Franks, then medieval Germany up to Napoleon's time.

One more nitpick I have is that I think the Emperor of China should be civic dependent if they keep the monarchy civic they should get to keep it. I don't think the collapse of the empire or emperors was preordained to happen entirely.

 

[Enyavar]

I think the title ideas are cool, but the suggested effects are WAY too powerful, nearly all of them. Remember that most of the titles are going to be held in a game, and by AIs too.

For example: The caliphate gets +5 stability for every 4th city? Whether I am playing Turkey, Arabia, Moors or Mughals, this will solidify my empire. For. All. Time. Reduce that bonus to +1 extension stability per 5% spread of Islam. With 40% spread of Islam, it would give the caliph +8 extension stability, that is still MUCH. Maybe +1 stability per 10% spread, but another +1 stability if you're running theocracy.

The Dalai Lama bonus makes no sense, historically. First, he is NOT the central figure in buddhism, only in lamaist buddhism. Historically, Theravada buddhism has always been more important (worldwide) than lamaism which only gained importance in 20th century.
Which brings me to second, it's the EXILED 14th Dalai Lama that is reknowned and gets the positive attitude shoved his way. His predecessors, the ruling monarchs of Lhasa, can be safely considered tyrants. That's not to say there shouldn't be that title, but a +1 attitude modifier with all civs and a +2 with all that have at least one city with buddhist minority: still plenty. Or, tie the attitude modifier to worldwide spread of buddhism, +1 for each 10% and another +1 for theocracy .

I strongly suggest toned down effects for all of them titles. (+100% research in a three-cathedral orthodox city??? As russia, I would spam missionaries and churches to get that bonus in all my ten core cities!)

More titles: bolivarian leader for the "liberator" of all/most of south America, must have capital there and not much territory elsewhere. Bonus?

King of Africa, for the civ holding more of the continent than anyone else (but not combined), independents/natives included. Able to train all special units of africa (impi, pombos, slave, musket impi, whatever, as long as prereq techs have been researched)

Steppe Khan, for the ruler of central asia, easier spread of silk road, is removed when last silk road vanishes from empire.

Most Catholic Majesty (control all of hispania); Most Christian Majesty (control all of France), Defender of the Faith (control all of Britain): tied to religion and having capital there: +1 commerce in capital if you have trade connection/OB with the Holy city. (It's so easy to achieve, similar generic titles could be used for each civ and their preferred religion. No bonus obviously for protestant France, but -1 commerce is negligible).

Some titles have meaning, obviously, others are just fancy labels. But even the ones with meaning shouldn't have unrealistic rewards, see above.

 

[merijn_v1]

Looking at the suggestions, I think you could split the titles into 2 groups: local titles and global titles. Local titles are basically all titles that require you to control a certain area/cities (with maybe an extra constraint). Because of this, there are only a few natural candidates for these title. The global titles do not have them, so basically every civ is a candidate.

I don't think that the local titles will work in DoC. Most of the area requirements are too locally defined. In SoI there require a significant part of the map and consists of area that are controlled by other civs. Many empires that are seperate civs in SoI are represented by a single civ in DoC, so there is no competition of other civs. And the area is much smaller. You control all required areas naturally.

For area requirements to work, they often have to consists of area that is not naturally controlled by a single civ. But I'm afraid the majority of the historic titles require area that 1 civ controls naturally. For me, that would feel like a "unique leader title", similar do dynamic civ names. But now they have a condition (which you practically always satisfy) and some kind of UP is attached to it.

 

[Leoreth]

I think the number one requirement for a title, even disregarding the effect, has to be that it has actually been fought over by different civilisations and changed hands during the game.

The Caliphate makes sense in that context, as does Roman Emperor, and you could do the Mandate of Heaven for China and Mongolia (and maybe later the Manchu). Other than that, I can't think of much, and those aren't enough to justify a whole system around it. What even is a title in the context of the entire span of human history, as opposed to the feudal time period of SoI?

 

[ozqar]

Considering Leo's requirements (that it can be fought over by different cities and change over time), I really liked the Leader of the Free World, as well as the Liberator of the Americas. The Religious ones (Pope, Ecumenical Patriarch, Caliph, etc) are also very interesting - you should just remove the requirement of owning the holy city so they can rotate more between civs, they can be rather defined as Protector of the Faith kind of thing (rather than Leader of the Faith). Also worth considering: many should have specific civics as requirements.

Maybe also, Leader of the Non-Aligned Nations (for the Cold War non-aligned movement) and Leader of all Hellenes (just made that up, something for whoever has most of post-Alexander's empire)?

Some others, such as Dalai Lama, are kind of cute and would be nice to have, no? Although they're more like civic-specific quests, but perhaps they can work if they have really minor effects.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I think the number one requirement for a title, even disregarding the effect, has to be that it has actually been fought over by different civilisations and changed hands during the game.

[...]

What even is a title in the context of the entire span of human history, as opposed to the feudal time period of SoI?

Titles that give some kind of international/historical prestige.

I think the title ideas are cool, but the suggested effects are WAY too powerful, nearly all of them. Remember that most of the titles are going to be held in a game, and by AIs too.

For example: The caliphate gets +5 stability for every 4th city? Whether I am playing Turkey, Arabia, Moors or Mughals, this will solidify my empire. For. All. Time. Reduce that bonus to +1 extension stability per 5% spread of Islam. With 40% spread of Islam, it would give the caliph +8 extension stability, that is still MUCH. Maybe +1 stability per 10% spread, but another +1 stability if you're running theocracy.

The Dalai Lama bonus makes no sense, historically. First, he is NOT the central figure in buddhism, only in lamaist buddhism. Historically, Theravada buddhism has always been more important (worldwide) than lamaism which only gained importance in 20th century.
Which brings me to second, it's the EXILED 14th Dalai Lama that is reknowned and gets the positive attitude shoved his way. His predecessors, the ruling monarchs of Lhasa, can be safely considered tyrants. That's not to say there shouldn't be that title, but a +1 attitude modifier with all civs and a +2 with all that have at least one city with buddhist minority: still plenty. Or, tie the attitude modifier to worldwide spread of buddhism, +1 for each 10% and another +1 for theocracy .

I strongly suggest toned down effects for all of them titles. (+100% research in a three-cathedral orthodox city??? As russia, I would spam missionaries and churches to get that bonus in all my ten core cities!)

More titles: bolivarian leader for the "liberator" of all/most of south America, must have capital there and not much territory elsewhere. Bonus?

King of Africa, for the civ holding more of the continent than anyone else (but not combined), independents/natives included. Able to train all special units of africa (impi, pombos, slave, musket impi, whatever, as long as prereq techs have been researched)

Steppe Khan, for the ruler of central asia, easier spread of silk road, is removed when last silk road vanishes from empire.

Most Catholic Majesty (control all of hispania); Most Christian Majesty (control all of France), Defender of the Faith (control all of Britain): tied to religion and having capital there: +1 commerce in capital if you have trade connection/OB with the Holy city. (It's so easy to achieve, similar generic titles could be used for each civ and their preferred religion. No bonus obviously for protestant France, but -1 commerce is negligible).

Some titles have meaning, obviously, others are just fancy labels. But even the ones with meaning shouldn't have unrealistic rewards, see above.

That was my brainstorming. In SoI, most of the titles' effects can't be directly translated to DOC.

I exaggerated with the Caliph effect, it needs a nerf from that. I did not intend to imply the Dalai Lama title being the only one in Buddhism. I don't know of other more important titles in Buddhism.

I suggested that Orthodox title effect to help Russian players, maybe it should be toned down to 10% science, or less religious diplomatic penalty.

 

[Finbros]

'First General Secretary'

First Secretary or General Secretary, it's different titles.

I like that suggestion. I also considered something related to the Comintern.

Probably, two titles:

General Secretary: Secularism, Central Planning and maximal hammers production in the world. +1 happiness from an Hospital, University, Laboratory, Factory, Coal Plant
President of Comintern: Central Planning, Egalitarianism and maximal spy points production in the world. -10% to espionage per any industrial building (Factory, Industrial Park, any of power station) in target city.

 

[Panopticon]

Almost all these are world wonders or holy cities or UHVs anyway.

 

[Enyavar]

I suggested that Orthodox title effect to help Russian players, maybe it should be toned down to 10% science, or less religious diplomatic penalty.

Orthodoxy didn't help the Russians with their scientific progress, and the diplomatic penalty is intended that way, I believe.

@Leoreth: (has nothing to do with titles) do you think there could be a project towards "Christian Ecumenism" to removes the confessional diplo penalty between Christian civs, and establish +1 diplo bonus between all Christian civs in the late game, whether or not they are orthodox, catholic or protestant? Prerequisite would be a city that has all three confessions present, and the tech of Civil Liberties. Could be just one civ that builds it; or could be a project that needs to be finished by three civs with the respective faiths (pretty unrealistic imho) or could even be a cumulative bonus for up to three civs that have finished that same project. Just a thought.

Back towards the titles; I concur with Leoreth in his post above: There should be competition for titles. Titles that are tailored for just one or two civs may add lots of flavor, but seem rather pointless. A new list of suggestions:

Religious titles:
Caliph: Be Muslim, have the largest number of Great Mosques (at least two, no title for a tie). No rival civilization is Master of Mekka (may be you, but also Independent, or Barbarian). Needs contact with at least two other Muslim civs. Effect: +1 Diplo Bonus from other Muslim civs, per Great Mosque. IF you own the shrine: +2 Expansion stability.
Pope: Be resident of the Apostolic Palace. Effect: Apostolic Palace sessions, +1 currency in capital per Catholic civ. IF you are owner of the AP: +2 Expansion stability.
Brahman (or Guru?): Be Buddhist or Hinduist, have the most cities with only the following two religions present: Hinduism and Buddhism (needs at least two; no title for a tie). Needs contact with at least two other Hinduist or Buddhist civs. Effect: +1 research in capital per number of Hinduist/Buddhist civs. IF you own both shrines: +2 Expansion stability.
Patriarch: Be Orthodox, have the most orthodox churches (at least five), have contact with at least two other orthodox civs. Effect: +1 additional trade route in capital from each orthodox civ you have OB with.
Hmm... for Protestanism, I don't think there is a distinctive "leader" title. For Zoroatrism, there are not enough civs to recognize a leader among them. For Taoism/Confucianism, a little of both: title could be "Laoshi" (wise teacher) but is rarely a figure of authority, and the number of civs is limited. Pagan and secular nations don't recognise international leaders in the religion column.

Continental dominance titles (no civic or religion constraints):
Ruler of Europe: Control half of all continental European core tiles (which means the cores of Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, both Germanies, Scandinavia, Poland). Effect: +1 city stability in foreign areas; -1 Diplo Malus from all other European civs (the above, plus Russia, Portugal, Byzance, Greece and England).
Celestial Emperor: Control 2/3 of the core tiles of the Eastern Asian civs (Mongolia, China, Korea, Japan, Tibet, Thailand, Khmer). Effect: -25% City Maintenance in all cities. -1 Diplo Malus from all other Asian civs (the above, plus Indonesia and India).
Libertador: Control 2/3 of the core tiles of South America (Maya, Aztek/Mexico, Inka, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina). Effect: +2 Happiness in all SA cities. -1 Diplo Malus from all other SA civs (the above, plus USA and Spain)
Leader of Africa: Have at least twice as much population in African cities as the next contender (compare to all other civs on the continent, including indies and natives). Needs contact with at least two other (playable) civs who own cities in Africa. +1 Diplo Bonus from all civs present in Africa. [Can have peace and OB with Natives ??]
A title for central Asia seems not advised. For North America, there are too few civs involved. For Australia/Oceania, the same.
Ruler of the Waves: Have at least [X] ships and form a navy that is twice or more as powerful than the next contender. X ranges from 3 to 11 ships, dependent on the player age [1+2*age], privateers don't count. Malus effect: Title holder gets -1 Diplo Malus from all nations that have more than [X] ships. Bonus effect: +1 trade route in all coastal cities with era-dependent naval building [none in ancient times, harbour in classic times, lighthouse in medieval, wharf in renaissance, drydock in industrial]. Obsoletes in global age.

Civic combo titles (all should require at least two more contenders with the same three civics). I think there should be +/-1 diplo effects for "followers" of the civic combos, and an increased diplo bonus/malus for the leader in that civic combo. The effects should, obviously, NOT increase the economic or military power.
Leader of the Free World. Be the democratic+constitutive+secularist civ with the largest economic and military power. Cultural effect?
Chairman of the Communist Parties. Be the central planning+state party+secularist [and no nationhood] civ with the largest economic and military power. Espionage effect? [Flavors could include the Soviet Chairman, etc]
Chief of the Nationalist Axis: Be the totalitarian+nationhood civ+secularist [and no central planning] with the largest economic and military power. Happiness effect? [National flavors could include instead of "Chief": Supreme Leader, Führer, Duce, Maréchal, Father, Vozd, General, etc.]
More civic combos would not be advised in this column, imho. There is no "leader among the worlds' monarchs", the award for the "colonialist with most colonies" are the colonies themselves, there's no "most multilateristic country".

 

[Leoreth]

To get similarly off track from titles specifically here, I always liked how the circumnavigation bonus worked, something unique you could do during the game that gives you a bonus if you are the first. I'd love to include similar achievements like that.

 

[Oblivionyx]

Caliph: Be Muslim, have the largest number of Great Mosques (at least two, no title for a tie). No rival civilization is Master of Mekka (may be you, but also Independent, or Barbarian). Needs contact with at least two other Muslim civs. Effect: +1 Diplo Bonus from other Muslim civs, per Great Mosque. IF you own the shrine: +2 Expansion stability.

I really like this, but I think the name should be changed to Commander of the Faithful. For one, it sounds better. The second reason is that a Caliph is someone who rules a Caliphate. There are two of those in the game, existing at the same time: the Abbasid Caliphate and the Caliphate of Cordoba. I also suggest new requirements so that the AI Arabia is most likely to own the title while it's still alive.

Requirements:

- Be Muslim
- Control more of the Muslim population than anyone else
- Know at least 1 other Muslim civ.​

Effects:

- Diplomatic bonus with all Muslim civs (+3 You are Commander of the Faithful!)
- Can ask (for free!) other Muslim civs for help during wars.
- If you control the Islamic Shrine, +2 Expansion stability (I just copied it, since it's a good idea.)​

 

[Panopticon]

To get similarly off track from titles specifically here, I always liked how the circumnavigation bonus worked, something unique you could do during the game that gives you a bonus if you are the first. I'd love to include similar achievements like that.

As a source of fun, this is one of my favourite things about Civ IV. The Liberalism race that tends to happen around the same time, or the races to found religions. Rhye's UHV mechanic is the same sort of concept. They all reward play actions where you are optimising for short-range narrative goals, in a game which is mainly about optimising for long-range open-ended goals, which often are not even very fun by the end - e.g., Conquest or the Space Race. I'm sure I have copied many of these ideas from Jimmy Maher's blog, but they seem very relevant here.

So I guess they should reward actions that a player may tend to defer in normal play. I really don't understand the non-European game very well so most of my ideas are local to there. Some nice firsts:
Settle a European city in America; build a Cathedral; build a Factory; build a rail station or a railroad; build 3? 4? wonders in a city; research Firearms (is it just me who defers this tech for ages?).

 

[Leoreth]

That actually reminds me of the Steam like achievement system I had in mind at some point. Which could or could not give additional ingame rewards.

 

[1SDANi]

That actually reminds me of the Steam like achievement system I had in mind at some point. Which could or could not give additional ingame rewards.

It seems like such a system would have a massive amount of achievements if we're going as granular as "settle a city in X continent" or "build your first of X basic building type". In such a case I'm not sure it'd be feasible to make a high enough variety of ingame rewards that'd be sufficiently balanced. (This coming from the girl who only recently started to actually understand the balancing of DoC so take it with a grain of salt)

If such a thing would be a problem, perhaps a system similar to Colonialism's Founding Fathers. Achievements would grant points of one of X different categories, which can then be spent on rewards. For the sake of poetry, I suggest using the Stability categories (Growth/Expansion, Commerce/Economy, Domestic, Foreign, Military)

 

[merijn_v1]

FFH does have an achievement system. It has achievements for winning the scenarios, winning a custom game for each civ, winning a custom game for each victory type and some other smaller ones.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I always wanted to look into how they did it but never got around to that.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Should we offer rewards for ahistorical actions? Like the Chinese triggering the conquistadores?

Anyway on the religious titles here is one:
HaNasi, be Jewish, have a positive relationship with (insert appropriate amount of leaders), have open borders with one of top three empires. Expires with Industrial Age.

 

[Panopticon]

Or, like, anyone triggering the Conquistadores gets access to a special unit. Thing about Liberalism / Circumnavigation is that they are really cheap little bonuses that make sense but don't win you the game, like an extra tech or an extra water move. Maybe the first Cathedral gets the city extra happiness, or the first American city gets you cheaper colonists, kind of thing.