Too many wonders

[UWHabs]

The wonders don't need to be crazy but a lot are pretty meh. I think they should be about 50% more wonderous than they are.

Like why are a number of wonders both cheaper to built and weaker than most of the buildings. Even the AI refuses to built Byrsa.

It seems an odd choice to give more wonders and make them more mediocre in a game where spaces to put them are even more at a premium - you can generally only build them in cities, and you have a limited amount of those.

Yeah, I'd agree. I think they could easily make them about 50% more expensive to build, and maybe make them doubly as strong. Even like Dur-Sharrukin, I think it would be better if it was +5 fortification strength in this settlement and +1 science on fortifications in all settlements. Byrsa could probably give you +2 gold on each wall in that settlement, or maybe even make it global as well giving +1 gold on walls in all settlements. Even abilities like that are not really game-changing, but sort of like the change to the Great Stele, would just make them a bit more balanced on the whole.

I don't want them too expensive, though. I think in the past civ games have often fallen into the trap of making them so wondrous, that especially on higher difficulty levels, early on, when you're fighting for land and territory, it just is too much of a cost to even think about building them. I like the fact that I can be expanding out my empire, but maybe it is worth my while to circle around and grab the Stele or Gate of All Nations. I'm not giving up too much of my empire to try to build them.

The other part of wonders that needs a little rebalance is to make sure the civ wonder unlocks are a bit more balanced. Like it's weird when it takes longer to get to Hale o Keawe in the Hawaiian tree than it does in the regular civics tree.

 

[MutilationWave]

Yeah there are a few of those exceptions where the civ doesn't unlock its own wonder early enough, these need addressed. On the other hand you have Inca, who get Machu Pikchu so early while other civs have to wait until the end of the tree.

 

[Stepbr]

Is this the first iteration of Civ where the wonders are less expensive but les wonderful?

I recall the Pyramids in Civ I (choose from any government, even "Modern Age" ones), or Leonardo's Workshop in Civ II (all units automatically upgrade, until you research Automobiles) -- they were both gravity-wells indeed.

Maybe there should be a mixture of high-cost, high-reward wonders and the budget wonders we have now.

Totally agree about the need to make sure "your" wonder is unlocked earlier in "your" Civics tree.

Also: why does the AI never build Oxford University? I find it's invaluable... even if it forces me to research all the masteries before I complete it.

 

[MutilationWave]

Oxford is like the freebie wonder. Gate of All Nations is also there for anyone to take. I'm blanking on which others are like this but the AI doesn't go for them until towards the end of the age. Can't say why though.

 

[Starwars]

Perhaps an option could be added to the game settings at some point where it limits the number of wonders available during a game, like how Old World does it. So it randomly draws from a pool which wonders would be available when you start a game. Maybe while guaranteeing that the ones tied to the civs in the game would be available.

But yes, I also think it's a bit unfortunate that some wonders always go extremely fast on higher difficulties, while others always seem to be available.

 

[uppi]

Oxford is like the freebie wonder. Gate of All Nations is also there for anyone to take. I'm blanking on which others are like this but the AI doesn't go for them until towards the end of the age. Can't say why though.

In Antiquity it seems to be the wonders unlocked by a mastery, which the AI tends to leave up for grabs. Apparently, the AI does not like to go for masteries, so it unlocks those wonders quite late. And I am not sure I can fault them for that. If I did not really like the Gate of All Nations, I would probably never research Discipline II.


I actually like wonders being fairly cheap but somewhat mediocre. It is still quite the risk starting a wonder when someone else could finish it before you and at least this way it is not that frustrating when the AI beat you by 1 turn once again. And in Antiquity, the wonder legacy path is the hardest one by far to me. And I like wonders. So in short: More Wonders!

 

[vorlon_mi]

I don't want them too expensive, though. I think in the past civ games have often fallen into the trap of making them so wondrous, that especially on higher difficulty levels, early on, when you're fighting for land and territory, it just is too much of a cost to even think about building them. I like the fact that I can be expanding out my empire, but maybe it is worth my while to circle around and grab the Stele or Gate of All Nations. I'm not giving up too much of my empire to try to build them.

Indeed! In previous Civ games, e.g., Civ3 and Civ4, the wonders were both fewer and more expensive in production required. Those games had ways to hurry wonder production, but the effects of the wonders continued in many cases if they were conquered. High level difficulty players (on the forums here) would post about letting the AI spend a bunch of turns (and production) building wonders for them. I've not studied the Civ7 wonders to see if any of them fit this model.

Over in the Civ7 strategy forum for fast science victories, the current best play is to wipe out AI civs in Antiquity, to better use their land. If there is a benefit from conquering established AI cities with wonders in them, it doesn't seem to be reducing the turns for victory.

 

[MutilationWave]

I think those folks are conquering their neighbor(s) so early that few wonders get built by those AIs.