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Trial Poll: Chieftess PI Part IV

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game II: Polls' started by naervod, Feb 16, 2003.

?

Is Chieftess Guilty?

Poll closed Feb 19, 2003.
  1. Guilty

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  2. Innocent

    15 vote(s)
    48.4%
  3. Abstain

    3 vote(s)
    9.7%
  1. Eklektikos

    Eklektikos Eponymous

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    Might I suggest that all those who are voting innocent because they don't like PIs put their heads together and try to come up with some workable ideas for an alternative or revised way of ensuring compliance to the ruleset we have willingly imposed upon ourselves.

    I am sick to the back teeth of seeing verdicts influenced by the citizenry's distaste for the PI process when all that should be affecting the result are the facts of the case.

    I would like to add that I do not mean to imply that all those who voted "innocent" did so for these reasons - I simply wish for the malcontents to put their money where their collective mouth is, so to speak.
     
  2. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Hear, hear, Eklektikos! And well said!


    I was just now trying to find the right way to say such a thing without earning myself a 3-day vacation. :D
     
  3. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    and a sidenote:
    before we had pi's to have the populace decide whether laws were broken, the only possible way of having rules enforced was going to a moderator. it was a 1-man decission of guilt or no-guilt. so if now we do not take pi's serious (which i believe is voting innocent just because you dont like them... if so vote abstain! thats what we have that option for!), we risk having this one-person enforcement of rules again.
    also, many people left of dissatisfaction with the game in the previous games because the only way to complain was going through a moderator... the pi-method gave us the possibility to officially complain and pull wrong things into the light... and with the judicacal implementation of pi-rules we even got rid of solely political pi's.
    what we can not get rid of is people not taking the pi's serious and voting with no sense.

    example:
    today, people vote innocent because they think the violation was a minor criminal act.
    this is wrong!
    they should vote guilty, and then vote "no punishment" or "warning" in the sentencing poll!

    same with the "im fed up with pi's" or "i ignore those pi's" people. they should vote abstain...

    but i also believe we can not fix those issues... :)
     
  4. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    another sidenote:
    people shouldnt take the pi's personal... and pi's can even strengthen the political position of someone (see donsig).

    also, we emulate real life here (didnt you notice?), and as in real life a ruler and leader is always in the jail with one foot :)
    so we are pretty good with our emulation ;-)
     
  5. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    At the time it was asked, I did not see any citizen discussion on it.
     
  6. Stuck_as_a_Mac

    Stuck_as_a_Mac Aptenodytes forsteri

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    just popping in- discussion is starting in a bit.
     
  7. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    You know I think we should ignore elections! Too many of them. I mean 12 elections a year! Get real!
     
  8. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    Gonnie PI's and Elections are two differently type of things in the dg we have to have elections for leaders we dont have to have a PI every term
     
  9. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    We have to have elections to elect leader, and we have to have PI's(Only when needed)to ensure that these leaders follow our laws. Why do have laws if we let people break them and not be found guilty?
     
  10. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

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    It's not that I dislike the PI process.... I Dislike the way we use it. Cyc comes in... and requests 4 or 5 PI's.... all of one which are closed down. And the one that wasn't was just a simple mistake and was fixed.

    I believe alot of people are voting innocent for this reason... Maybe if Cyc and others learn that they can't go in there and request a PI and win everyone one then maybe they won't request a PI at all....

    Edit: Sure.... Shaitan and Donsig has gotten on my nerves, but that was against me and me only. But this is even worst than then. I can understand if she did something wrong on purpose, but this was an ACCIDENT.
     
  11. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Rochester, NY
    The North Province build queue was an accident. The North Province worker instructions were an accident. The university in New PDX was an accident. How many accidents have to happen...
     
  12. Furry Spatula

    Furry Spatula ...

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    Well people. It truly does appear that we want to handle this in an incredibly legal sense and real way. So lets look at the way real legal cases are handled. One of the steps to find someone criminally responsible for their act is having to prove that they did intend to break the law (in most cases). So was this intended? It certainly appears not. I voted innocent. the reason. To speed up the process. It is insane that we still have to go to votes even if people are pleeding guilty. It is insane that these PI's are being take so personally. The goal of the PI from my understanding was to make sure the game is run in a certain way and to have some guidelines and rules. Chieftess made a mistake, the mistake was fixed. It was an accident and thus punishing Chieftess won't serve any purpose. Voting innocent here is just a way of speeding things up in my mind. And is a protest vote against 5 PI's in how many days? The whole PI system must be revamped because it just gets insane when we have a S*it load of PI's to have to sift through and vote on.

    It seems the continuation of this PI was simply vengance. The problem was fixed and there was no damage whatsoever to the game itself. To people, yes for somereason they are diving too deep into this and assuming it was a personal attack. Clogging the game up with useless PI's that wont serve any purpose is what is making this game less fun.

    However, if someone does make too many mistakes as donsig put it. We should have a way to impeach a leader. Is this possible not through PI's? And is there a way to make this work so we don't end up having an impeachment vote after every turnchat? i don't know. But it seems insane to initiate this many PI's. I think that the demogame needs to take off in a different direction. We need to get away from the personalness of this, and realize that we should just have fun. We don't need to stick to the rule book 100% of the time. If the game is completely scripted in this way then it looses all its fun. An example of this is the fact that we still have to vote for innocence or guilt even after pleading guilty. If we do have re-elections mid term, my vote would be for the people who acknowledged this last time we had PI's in which people pleaded guilty but did nothing to inniate a change after saying we should have one. I can't remember if those people are still in power but something realy realy needs to change. I'm on off in the demogame because it isn't that fun anymore for me.

    And please, nobody take anything in here personally. I didn't mention any names as i don't want to cause too much of a ruckus and to be honest i don't realy remember who is in what posistion. This should be somewhat of a wake up call when we have someone pleading guilty and peole voting innocent. It's obvious it means something needs to be changed.



    edited after reading the warning just to make sure i will avoid a 3day ban. It sounded angry with one word. And i didn't want to have it sound angry at all.
     
  13. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    That one had a council vote, if you took a look at the chat log. I didn't like the change because of the shields it wasted, and I saw no prior discussion of moving it.
     
  14. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I suggest this poll is now in violation of Section H of the CoS. As Chieftess and defense council have both pleaded Guilty on this charge, it should go straight to a sentencing poll.
     
  15. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    This poll closed at 14:44 GMT on 19 Feb. The Council Vote for Section H of the COS was closed at 20:17 GMT on 19 Feb. This poll was already completed before the new rules went into effect.
     
  16. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Actually, Shaitan the 4th council vote came in way before this poll closed. The sixth and final vote came in 10 minutes before this poll closed.
     
  17. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    Good point. I'll leave this up to the Judiciary. As Cyc notes, the poll criteria would have closed it well before it was actually closed and tallied. Do manual polls automatically close? I left my 10 foot pole at home so I'm just going to run the other way. ;)
     
  18. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Quoting Shaitan's opening post for the Section "H" poll that Donovan Posted:
    In accordance with our Standards, this Vote will remain open for the following time frame:
    Minimum time = Vote tally of an unbeatable majority of YES or NO votes.
    Maximum time = 48 hours or when quorum is reached, whichever comes last.
    _____________________________________

    It would appear so, Shaitan.
     
  19. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    Works for me. If I said it, it has to be true. ;)
     
  20. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    What matters is whether the new rules were in effect before this poll was open, not when it was closed. Regardless, Chieftess should not be tried twice for the same charge.
     

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