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[BTS] Trouble with non-copper starts

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by scheines, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Detailed good writeup, gives us alot to work with, thanks!
    I'll probably take a look at this later today too.

    Just from the quick glance I see that things are going to slow. Running around with warriors T50 scouting can be done, but it should be done knowing that you are paying the warrior for a few extra tiles uncovered.

    Also, not working pigs is a crime. :D
    Only if severely pushed by happycap in isolation I would take a citizen of pigs.

    But if you really want to have better help, do the shadow-game formula, post a game and play shorter turnsets so we can chip in every few turns. That really helps you shape up your game.
     
  2. scheines

    scheines Chieftain

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    Thanks for some initial feedback!

    Yeah I have no idea about the pigs... I must’ve gone off on some train of thought and forgot what I was doing :lol:

    Lymond, by chance can you elaborate on what exactly makes most city sites I took poor / what changes improve them? After reviewing my screenshots, I definitely see how Orleans needing a monument delays my horses significantly, and requires me to tech mysticism before writing further hampers growth because of later libraries, etc. I also see how Lyons is a detriment sharing food with Orleans too. I guess I thought settling near the gold would be worth it.

    Aside from that, food is in every city. I guess it’s better than no food, but worse than first ring food?

    Lastly, is there a specific shadow game format, aside from ok here’s the start everyone suggest what I should do for 20 turns then I’ll play and update?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
    krikav likes this.
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Orleans is somewhat OK imho, it's on a PH which is nice, and since the goal was to practice with warriors against barbs it makes some sense.
    But in normal play, horses and corn in the first ring would be obvious.

    I'm more annoyed by Lyons. :D
    Sharing food is a nice practice, but it's usually to give a new city a headstart before it can claim it's own food, or as a tool to help unload a city with way too much food.

    Lyons can only steal Orleans only source of food and that makes no sense at all.
    I see from screenshots that you are also making way too many plains hills mines, and likely too many roads.


    There is no set format for shadow-games, the game you posted here has very good settings, normal and standard. (Except perhaps low sea level)
    20 turns is too long. Updates should be had every time you are about to make a new decision.
    "What should my workers path be?" "What techs in what order?" "What should I build in city X when warrior finishes...?"

    When you provide your reasoning behind your decisions, we get a better understanding of what you know and what you might have misunderstod.
    When you in turn hear our reasoning and our suggestions for actions you might have opportunity to learn.
     
  4. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    On a side note, Lyons would be perfectly fine 1w with just working gold for a long time, +1 happy and 5hpt (and commerce ofc).
    Perfect example for a good size 1 city, but focus should be on it's only good tile.
     
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played up to T44 to show abit how I think regarding warriors.

    To T30 first, to be continued.
    Spoiler :


    From the starting screenshot, I think I would have wanted to wander inland and settle on a PH that would reach the pigs, to claim more land and to get a faster start, but I settled where you did here.
    Your reasoning regarding wanting to move 1S to enable another city up north is solid imho!
    Here my warrior gazes jungle in the south and turn NW instead.
    Checking around the clam is also an option, but I think that can be done easier later, scouting the inland is better to do while there are likely most animals around.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Animals spawn inbetween turn 5 and 6 iirc, so here I dare to step NW onto flatland.
    But from this point on, my warriors become very paranoid.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    I would want to have a outpost in the west there on those hills, but there is a risk getting there now, something might have spawned NE of pigs and moved west, if I move E now I might die, so warrior stays put. Pretty nice location though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    I hope you do these tricks...? When moving to pigs I make a road for one turn.
    Buffy is nice and saves information about what pre-improvements are done so I can just hover around. Here playing unmodded I have to make markers for everything I do which is annoying.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Capital will only have two ok tiles to work while building settler (pigs and PH mine) so in a accelerated mode one could go for a settler at size2 here.
    However, we want warriors too, thats why we "grow to size 3". Which is only a rule of thumb, no fix dogma.
    I'm a coward and want at least 2 more warrior in addition to my starting one, so I emphazise hammers. This way I reach pop3 a turn slower or so, but I don't mind. I want the warriors.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    Warrior marches bravely over the forested hills where he is strong.
    Seeing this corn, I scuttle all plans for cities around clams. I want a city right there on that PH for a extra hammer, inbetween two wonderful tiles (horse and corn).
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    I'll make a road toward that city, only SW of the lake and on the horse is required to connect cities and gain +1commerce in both when second city is settled. But roading all the way enables settler to move there in one turn.
    Only alternative use of workerturns would be to farm 1W of lake, as a city claiming stone could benefit from a farm there.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    The warrior was perhaps abit bold, but I wanted him to take up post where he now stands, as that forms a nice 5x5 grid connection with the southern one. If he dies here the southernmost warrior would have to fall back and start to fortify on the c2 location, and I might have to wait until chariots before improving corn.
    But he wins his fight at 80% or so odds.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    The first warrior was suprised by a pather attack and is injured and don't dare fight a lion. falling back 1N.
    This was probably stupid, I would have healed inbetween turns and now I lose all my fortify bonus.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG


     
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  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    To T44
    Spoiler :


    This warrior wants to stand on that naked hill. Not as a fortress but as a lookout. But going there right away is too risky as there might be barbs in the southern tiles. Manuvering this way to have a good shot at winning a fight if danger approaches.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    There was nothing there, so now he can move 1E.
    There was nothing on those tiles last turn so it's 100% safe to move 1E now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    Now a very nice perimeter is established around the vunerable second city spot.
    Ofcourse these warriors can't take on archers, but they can try fend of warriors and they give a early warning.
    And if crisis strikes, all 3 can fall back and defend together while capital produces reinforcements.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    I love when these things align. BW is in so I can revolt, and I do it now just when the settler is out.
    This is much better than revolting after the city is done.
    Right now, those 100 hammers invested into a settler can do their work (moving) during anarchy. When already settled, the 100 hammers invested can do work by working tiles (and getting their city center bonuses), but that it cannot do while in anarchy.
    Alternative timing for revolt is when third settler is just out, or when a workboat is finished and is moving toward it's seafood, or when a worker is just finished and start to work.

    Here I'm not sure what is better, to go for the corn right away, or to chop a worker in capital, but I go for the chopping.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Improved the horses first as it was on the way toward the corn.
    Capital should probably have started a settler and not a worker, chop or whip a workboat and settle one of the clam-spots quickly.


    Now the era of the brave warriors are almost at an end on this map.
    I will now produce a chariot or two in orleans (first working horses and then corn when it's improved, but if working unimproved corn for one turn gets me to pop2, that take prio)
    Chariots will move first, (one step at the time) and warriors will follow them and take up good defensive positions behind them.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
     

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  7. scheines

    scheines Chieftain

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    Lots of little good tips I don’t think I knew of.

    What’s the deal with half building the road? Does that really save you anything? You’re doing the same things, just in different order. I guess you get the pig a turn sooner, but at that rate, why not just go right for the pig?


    And for the road to connect cities. Why does that work? Can you get trade routes on lakes pre-sailing?

    I guess to lymond’s point I do make too many early roads, but I am not sure why sometimes I get TRs honestly, so I err on the side of liberal road building. I know coast / rivers with sailing works, but at times I’ll get random cities I don’t understand how they’re connected. Also - usually sailing feels not worth the beakers unless I actually plan to be relatively coastal. Here, I only foresee 3 maybe 4 coastal cities early?

    I also tend to be getting currency as soon as I get alpha (via trade or self teched), so i am usually trying to connect everything early.
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    That half-road doesn't do me much good at all. I had not finished the road and had not have any use for it up until T44, but it didn't cost me anything either, I was moving toward the pig anyway and there is no point wasting anything, no matter how miniscule it might be. :)

    If cities are connected, they both get 1 commerce from internal trade routes.

    You can connect cities by either having a road between them, or by having them both along the same line of coast and/or river pre-sailing if the coast/river is fully under your culture.
    Post sailing the river or coast doesn't need to be inside your culture.

    But the road I made, I also made so that the settler could move to it's desired location in one turn!
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Some answers have been given, but the basic answer is you settle with food or resources in the first ring. As My explained, if you are settling Lyons for the gold then settle for the gold. Gold is actually very powerful early to settle next to and just work for some time at size 1. Ideally the city would eventually get food but early it pays off.

    Again, Orleans was ok. You don't necessarily have to have horses in first ring as long as you have the food, which you do, if you are otherwise not concerned to have the advanced units. Of course, the horse tile is a nice production tile to have online. Settling with both in first ring though is probably better. Conversely, in your spot you will eventually get stone for some wonders like Mids, though on higher levels you might want that faster.

    Tours is perplexing. yes, it has some flood plains but that is not really food. Granted you can just cottage it and make it a dedicated commerce city, but it will be slow to develop. The problem though is you just plopped it right next to Zara which can create some issues. First, he will culture press you and you will soon lose the flood plains anyway and likely never get them back. Second, and Zara is mostly a friendly chap, but you create border tension early. There really was no need for this. If you are worried about blocking land to the N then settling clams/horse to the W would suffice and be a nice city.

    Marseilles is just WTF. There is nothing there to warrant that spot, and you killed the crab city just E.

    As mentioned before, you have two solid cities 3N and S of Paris on the coast that can share clams on each side, with the N also getting crabs eventually. Both cities would have instant trade routes from coastal culture which is nice too. I probably would have settled those 2 after corn/horse, with an eye on getting a city over to the island soon for overseas boosted trade routes.

    For cities not connected by any form of water then all you need is a road. If you have time to road before settling the trade route will be instant - road before settling on same turn as settle if that is the case.

    Those half turns of worker improvement that Krikav mentioned are a great way to maximize worker efficiency, especially when a worker is moving two tiles - or sometimes three onto a dead stop (hill or forest). You can part road or part cottage or part farm, whatever is suitable. Worker management is one of the key aspects of improving your game and very important early. These things may seem small to you now but are actually huge and really important on highest levels where every turn and every action counts.
     
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  10. scheines

    scheines Chieftain

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    Definitely hear you on most city critiques. Replayed some turns and settling 2 cities for stone and corn+horse, I get both stone + horses faster, even though I had to wait for a 3rd city. No monuments saves more time than I’d expect.

    A few follow ups on your city placement thoughts:

    1) For Tours, if I don’t settle that, then Zara does. Now we’re in the same border tension, as before, but now I don’t have that city spot. Am I misunderstanding the point (or maybe culture tension mechanics) here? I have been on the flip side of this, where Ragnar settles right on the edge of my culture then DoWs shortly after.

    2) Marseilles shares the pig. I could still go on the corner hill, but are you just saying one city 2E of where Marseilles is is better than 2 cities like I planned? Why is sharing food bad here?
     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Lymo wants to help, so his city analysis can look devastating ;)
    Most cities can be explained, Rheims i.e. will be good after border pop and it's not wrong to settle on plains hills in general.
    Tours was with an intention for floodplains, Zara seems to have rushed up there a bit, and peaks blocked settling 1w.
    Marseilles can borrow pigs and has lots of green tiles (crabs could still be settled 3e Lymo :)).
    And i actually missed those sheep that were possible for Lyons, should have been settled 1nw or 2n1w after seeing them.

    What we try saying is, you could do better with the land available.
    I like Marseilles as example, on a boxed in deity game with limited tiles this place would be an option, lots of green can be fine.
    But here you can pick your spots, and practise on better early benefits.
    So Marseilles moves down to filler city quality, esp cos Paris with Pyras, Cha and gold will have plenty use for pigs.
     
  12. scheines

    scheines Chieftain

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    No I absolutely like lymond’s bluntness, no point in sugar coating it. That only delays me getting the point :lol:

    Not trying to argue that my city placement is right - just kind of explaining my train of thought a bit. I think having the step by step thought process can show more than just seeing the end decision I made.
     

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