Try-05: Ludicrous Speed!

[Asaf]

Nice opening!

I'll look at the save this evening (I'm at GMT+2), and will play/post sometime tomorrow.

So:
south warrior to scout flood plains area.
How about going for archery after BW? barbarians are sure to appear soon, and I don't see any metals in the area.

Finish settler, another defender (warrior/archer), worker, barracks.

It's a little difficult to see the map from the image, but I think that the location of the warrior is a good spot for a city: It'll have horse, 2 silk, a coast, 2 FP, it's on a hill, has another hill and a river close by. It can be a commerce city (production won't be very high).

Of course, I might change my mind after some more scouting.
I really want that horse, though. So if we do settle there we need some kind of culture generator, so mysticism (after pottery?).

Need to check how many turns each tech should take, and plan accordingly.
How many turns should I play?

 

[Trynthlas]

I've seen barbs already (an archer one), but it hasn't moved close. We don't see metals because we haven't finished BW yet I'm fine with sticking Archery in there, but on Monarch barbarians aren't really that bad so I tend to not worry about them too much. Archery + HBR soon would be good for an early war with horse archers. What I wanted to be sure and do was have pottery available to cottage the floodplains if we so chose (might not, given lack of food otherwise)...so maybe can ignore it until we want writing.

I'm actually a bit concerned about food, most of the things that look like decent city sites have a LOT of plains or hills and very few food resources. There's one good grassland-heavy site to the NW, but it is poor in other resources.

New pic to show bigger zoom on the area to the south:

Spoiler :

Sooo maybe thinking skip the pottery, as it looks like we'll need the FP for food.
Tech path: BW -> Archery -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood ??


Out of time at the moment, will post again this afternoon!

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

My two pence

I would cottage later the River Grass rather than farm now, should mine the hills and then pre-chop if nothing to do after BW.

Tech wise
If we get metal then skip Archery for now, I would skip it anyway and head for pottery but can see this is a risk so happy to take it if need be.

Second city should go on the river plains near the FP, not many other obvious sites?? 1N of rice to the west and 1N of FP to our NW seem plausible??

 

[Asaf]

ppp:

Agree with Mighty Dwaarf on stop the farming and mining the hills.

If after BW there's no copper - I'll go for archery. If we have within a reasonable distance - will go for wheel -> pottery.

I plan to revolt to slavery immediately after BW, wait a turn after the anarchy and whip the settler into another defender.

That will make the settler finish in 9. By then the warrior will scout enough to decide where to settle. I'll stop then and post a map.

 

[cripp7]

Plan sounds good to me, hopefully there's copper close by.

 

[Trynthlas]

Here's my concern with not farming:

Spoiler Spaceball One Food Situation :

2 food per tile means the city can continue to grow at least 1 more population. We have a +4 gross overhead from our cows and wheat, but a -9 gross deficit from the plains and various hills. Now, maybe we don't care about that this early on since we won't be working the plains, but at some point we're going to have a food shortage.

In defense of farming, we will get better utility out of slavery (whipping) with the city able to regrow population more quickly if more food is available. More pop sooner = more whips.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

There is enough food to mine the two GH and one PH or we could windmill both PH later when happy caps become less of issue. I would rather cottage than farm a river grass in the capital anyday. With Bureau grass with town gives 2F 8ishC (this is then turned into mainly sci which is modified again by libs etc) whilst farmed gives 3F1C which is a third as productive. Early on there is enough to work cows,wheat, 2 GH mines, then cottages. PH's can be worked to stagnate at happy cap.

 

[Asaf]

Worker stopped with the farm and went to mine the hills (sorry Trynthlas, but everyone else agreed. Plus city is only size 2/3 and we can still farm it later).

Warrior continued scouting.
Nothing else happened, until...

2920 BC -

Spoiler :

Meet Wang Kon's archer

2760 BC - Taoism was FIADL

2720 BC -

Spoiler :

No copper to be seen, so I move to archery. Revolt to slavery.
Correction: Moved the warrior and found copper. Not sure it's a good spot, but changed to wheel anyway for now.

2680 BC - Anarchy is over. I wait one more turn before whipping so we can have a larger overflow for the Ikhanda - we already have a 28 overflow, it's a shame to waste it on a warrior, which only requires 15 (especially with the aggressive barracks bonus).

2640 BC -

Spoiler :

meet Tokugawa's archer.

Whipped settler.

2600 BC - Settler done. Ikhanda is 1 turn away.
I now it's a small risk, but I took the worker slightly out of our borders to expose the missing tiles (the warrior can't reach there because of the lake. He can't swim. Hey! that's an interesting new promotion!). It is now right outside of our borders, can be returned home next turn.
Not much of tiles - 2 deserts and a grassland.

I figure we won't send the settler unescorted anyway, so I continue another turn, plus I really wanted a reason to put the image below...

2560 BC:
SpaceBall I: Ikhanda -> warrior (up in 1).
Warrior pops a (pizza the) hut for experience.

Spoiler :

Worker safely returned home.

I stop here to let everyone a chance to take a look at the map.
I don't think I can continue very soon, so I suggest my turnset ends here.

The settler can be sent now with the existing warrior (a new one will be trained next turn).
We have 24 production, so if we want to invest it in something else (another settler?) instead of the 15 warrior, it's a possibility.

Forest 1S of Spaceball 1 on the grass hill is pre-chopped.
The Wheel is up in 4 turns.

Map:

Spoiler :

Roster
======
Trynthlas
Asaf
Mighty Dwarf
cripp7

Save:
View attachment Dark Helmet BC-2560.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Asaf]

As for cities placing, reaching the copper will be a little problematic, although we can place a city directly on the copper (plenty of lake food with LH and cow+stone).
We can also place it 2N1W of the banana, or any of the previously suggested locations.

I do think we should make copper (or maybe horse) a priority. Especially with someone like Toku around.

 

[Trynthlas]

There is enough food to mine the two GH and one PH or we could windmill both PH later when happy caps become less of issue. I would rather cottage than farm a river grass in the capital anyday. With Bureau grass with town gives 2F 8ishC (this is then turned into mainly sci which is modified again by libs etc) whilst farmed gives 3F1C which is a third as productive. Early on there is enough to work cows,wheat, 2 GH mines, then cottages. PH's can be worked to stagnate at happy cap.

Yup. Good points, and this is why I said I'm rusty (and also still struggle at Monarch anyhow).

As for cities placing, reaching the copper will be a little problematic, although we can place a city directly on the copper (plenty of lake food with LH and cow+stone).
We can also place it 2N1W of the banana, or any of the previously suggested locations.

I do think we should make copper (or maybe horse) a priority. Especially with someone like Toku around.

Asaf, no worries on the farm thing, I made my case, it just was wrong

Directly on the copper is a decent city site (Moai Statues anyone?) with the copper, stone, and cow in the BFC. I have a feeling we'll want to throw out about 3-4 cities quickly here to grab some land and important resources...

Strategy layer dot map inc...

 

[Trynthlas]

Yellow = sites I think are definite places to settle
White = look good, not sure.

Spoiler dotmap :

Save attached has dotmap done in BUFFY (Alt-X) but I made no other changes.

 

[cripp7]

I think getting the horse first and then going for the copper. We can use chariots to fog bust.

 

[Trynthlas]

MD, you're up! Let us know if you can't play and report within the next 30 hours.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Got it,

Not sure I like the yellow spot by the horses as a city, the lack of food without farming FP's is the main concern. We could settle on the PH the blue circle is suggesting which would grab all but one FP a couple of hills in the BFC. If we were to build Oracle and take COL this would be holy shrine and would soon border pop twice to allow horsies. Is a bit more long term but I think we could cope with cover promoted warriors/archers for now.

I suggest we change to another worker in cap as only 3 turns then warrior, if an emergency occurs can always use the whip.

Tech Wheel-Pottery-Archery (or start towards Priesthood).

Once we get some cottaged FP's going we should rocket through early techs.

Please give thoughts on city placement.

 

[happyturtle]

What? You can't have ludricrous speed without fast units! Settle with horses in the first ring so you can have chariots asap! An early worker steal/pillaging war will weaken a rival badly and make them easy pickings later in the game.

Grab resources first, worry about building optimum cities later!

(Would love to join, but I never got the Buffy mod working, so the saves won't open for me. )

 

[Trynthlas]

Yellow dot on the hill does have food issues, I agree. Too many plains all over the place on this map.

Having the horses out of the BFC makes me feel icky, however, neither of the civs we have made contact with so far is REALLY close, so I'd lean towards an Oracle build + settler spam and THEN go for the war machine.

Plains hill for the blue circle sounds fine to me, MD.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Played 20ish, really is ludicrous speed this early.

Builds Cap - Worker, Wrrior, Scout, Scout, Warrior, Gran, Settler( 3 turns away).

2nd City - Gran, (one turn from Ikhanda)

Tech Wheel, Pottery, Mysticism, 2 turns from Med.

There is more copper and Wheat just north of 1st Copper site. Other than that there is better land to the south with 4 diff Calendar resources.

Northern Scout popped experience hut as yet any experience is unassigned.

I have dotmapped my thoughts of city sites. Sorry Trynthlas but I had used the pre dotmapped save so lost your dot map. I would prefer the 1N of Rice city as compared ti yours as would allow ships to cut across the thin penninsula rather than having to sail round it.

In my estimation we could get Oracle in 15 turns

View attachment Dark Helmet BC-1800.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Asaf]

I think Oracle is possible. So med->priesthood->archery->masonry (for quarry, see below). COL with Oracle is fine, if no one else gets to COL first. Otherwise - MC, obviously.

Why do you say that 2nd city will become holy city? I though it was the largest city with the least religions. If that is the case I think we should build monument in Ulundi next.

I think next city should be wheat/copper city, but why not 1E of wheat? that way we have stone in BFC, and true we get more desert but less tundra, and more grassland to farm/cottage. And fresh water is important, but we're expansive, so we can do without it.

I had a weird tingle to go for Stonehenge when I saw it in the city screen (we can whip the settler in 2 turns and chop a forest or 2), but I prefer Oracle for faster advancement.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I think Oracle is possible. So med->priesthood->archery->masonry (for quarry, see below). COL with Oracle is fine, if no one else gets to COL first. Otherwise - MC, obviously.

Why do you say that 2nd city will become holy city? I though it was the largest city with the least religions. If that is the case I think we should build monument in Ulundi next.

I think next city should be wheat/copper city, but why not 1E of wheat? that way we have stone in BFC, and true we get more desert but less tundra, and more grassland to farm/cottage. And fresh water is important, but we're expansive, so we can do without it.

I had a weird tingle to go for Stonehenge when I saw it in the city screen (we can whip the settler in 2 turns and chop a forest or 2), but I prefer Oracle for faster advancement.

We would have to go med-priest-writing to take COL we should be able to fit writng in nicely with Oracle in cap with a forest chop. There is no danger of AI self researching COL first.

I'm not sure the exact dynamics of working it out but it has always seemed to me that holy city goes to last city without religion?? In this case I would hold off settling next city, we can complete settler and move him into position ready once Oracle completes

I dotmapped one north of wheat as I assumed that the stone would be used for the city on southern copper. Apart from that either site is as much of a muchness.

We wont have time to complete Stonehenge and Oracle now, we could start Stone henge after Settler to collect some cash but we should concentrate on Oracle when available. Monument in second city is ok with me as will help get to 100 culture.

 

[Asaf]

We would have to go med-priest-writing to take COL we should be able to fit writng in nicely with Oracle in cap with a forest chop. There is no danger of AI self researching COL first.

Right. Writing for COL. I'm really bad at remembering the pre-reqs... Should remember to always consult the tech tree.

I'm not sure the exact dynamics of working it out but it has always seemed to me that holy city goes to last city without religion?? In this case I would hold off settling next city, we can complete settler and move him into position ready once Oracle completes

Looking at the SDK code (although the only one available for me now is the Better AI, but it doesn't look as they changed this part), it does depend on some random number, but here's the calculation:

Value for city = (10 + population + random) / (city-religion-count + 1)
If it's capital, the above value is divided by 8.

And in any case, the minimal value used is 1.

And then the city with the highest value gets to be holy city.

The random value is 0 .. FOUND_RELIGION_CITY_RAND-1 (which is defined somewhere in the configs or the XML's, can't really check it now), and of course different for each city.

So in our case, the capital will probably not be the holy city, and if we build another city before COL, than the larger city (population-wise) has a better chance for becoming a holy city. But if it's really important to us, we should delay it.