Trying to fix ancient ruins

[Hinin]

Hello everyone,

As you already know, ancient ruins (AR) have often been a tough subject to discuss, because of several points :

• The random nature of their placement and the bonus they give in a game where terrain already plays a large role in determining early success;
  
• The difference in power between the different bonus (from a free technology to a small amount of XP);
• How strong the Shoshones can be because of their ability to choose the bonus they get.

Because of this, it is often said that AR or Shoshones are desactivated when playing, and I think it is a shame, simply because of what the AR are supposed to provide in the early game :

• A way to incentivize exploration, especially for tall players who won't benefit much from going too far from their core city early game otherwise;
• Create a bit of tension and competition to claim some difficult to reach AR (I talk about you, AR on the other side of the detroit);
• Provide unexpected bonus that can spice up the early game and open up new strategies.

This is why I would like to talk about AR: what they should be, what they should provide, within what circumstances and limits.

Here is a first proposition, just for brainstorming-sake.

Spoiler Brainstorm - The AR quest :

After looking at the Shoshone system for bonus selection, I have been wondering if there could be a way to make it a bit more fair to apply it to all civs.

My idea, for now, is to make AR bonus not random anymore (so bonus selection), but with a restriction based on the number of AR you've found (so weak bonus early on, then more powerful bonus are unlocked when you've found the second AR, and so on).

It could give something like this:

Spoiler List of bonus for the AR quest :

1 AR found:

- XP bonus for unit (increased from current amount)
- territory extension
- vision of a distant city

2 AR found:

- a bit of gold
- a free pop in the capital

3 AR found:

- a bit of production
- a bit of faith
- a bit of culture

4 AR found:

- a free promotion for the unit
- a free technology

As for the current Shoshone UA, a bonus, once selected, wouldn't be usable again for some time.
This system would allow those who really invest in searching for AR to be rewarded, while avoiding that a civ with one nearby AR suddenly gain a free technology or a free Spearman well before you can do anything against it.

I am aware that such a system would surely require the creation of a new trigger counting the number of AR each civilisation has explored, but I still like this idea

As for the Shoshone UA, maybe choosing two bonus each time (with still the same AR restriction as for the other civs) would be enough, or a totally different kind of UA bonus could be found.

So, do you have other ideas : yield rebalance, other system, new ideas for the Shoshone UA ? Feel free to discuss.

Also, a question for those who know map creation code : how does the code defining AR placement works ? Can it be modified to make AR search less random ?

 

[General_Drax]

Nice idea. Sadly Shoshone and Maya (3/4 UC) are permanent banned in my games due to their UA that needs ARuins. Reworking their UA (for Maya is just an ability of a unit), for Shoshone maybe give +2 movement to their Recon units lost on Paratrooper upgrade. I think is fine with The Great Expanse trait.

Ruins: take out free tech and tone down bonus for culture, science and faith. All other are fine.

I think like 15 faith is fine on 80 faith Pantheon. It's difficult getting 4 on faith in a row and a Pantheon right away.

 

[Deljade]

I like playing with ruins. I admit that they can help the human a lot. The AI lacks the critical thinking required to maximise the amount of ruins gathered, and I gladly take the games where I can find a ton of ruins, but if I don't find good ruins it's fine. At the moment I believe all of the ruins are worthwhile though. The worse one being probably the XP one. The idea in the OP is interesting, but I enjoy playing with the current system.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I welcome the effort, hope you're able to find a way! Unfortunately I think they're inherently unbalanced (because usually it's pure luck how many you'll get compared to the AI), so I always play with them turned off. But reducing the randomness seems the way to go!

 

[Boombar]

I would argue some randomness makes games more fun. Good example is when you think there is no way you are going to get enough faith for founding a religion and suddenly you find a faith ruin. Yes, its not balanced and IMO its not supposed to be. Game is already predictable enough.

 

[Hinin]

Sadly Shoshone and Maya (3/4 UC) are permanent banned in my games due to their UA that needs ARuins.

That is one of the main reasons I think the system should be reworked: having to eliminate two civs from the game just because of how unbalanced it can be is telling, I think.

The AI lacks the critical thinking required to maximise the amount of ruins gathered, and I gladly take the games where I can find a ton of ruins, but if I don't find good ruins it's fine.

The problem here is that some civs, when going up in difficulty or in the hands of players, can really become too strong when having the luck to obtain a lot of AR or simply one lucky draw (for example warmonger civs or civs with strong synergies that can unexpectedly be available earlier because of AR). Thus, finding a way to keep the AR while making their effects more fair seems important to me.

But reducing the randomness seems the way to go!

Indeed. The idea I gave is just one among others, I think. If someone has interesting ideas on the matter, don't hesitate to talk about it !

I would argue some randomness makes games more fun. Good example is when you think there is no way you are going to get enough faith for founding a religion and suddenly you find a faith ruin. Yes, its not balanced and IMO its not supposed to be. Game is already predictable enough.

I'm not against randomness, as I said in the opening message. I'm against high-variable randomness (just look at the difference in power between the +10 xp bonus and the free tech one, it's just too much) and would like to find a way to create a system that allows a more fair and low-variable randomness by improving bonus distribution and AR placement on the map. By the way, @tu_79, do you have any idea how the AR are put around when the map is created ?

 

[tu_79]

I think it comes after the mapscript is done, but I can't say where.

 

[Drakle]

Well first, it being called 'ancient ruins' is a bit odd and leans Civ5 more into a silly board game style.

So firstly, what if we rename ancient ruins, as 'village' or 'tribe'. And moving into encampments AND clearing barbarian camps can trigger the bonus. (barbarian camps also need to gold scale by era). So if you aren't super lucky with scouting, you can still pick up some with an investment in an early military.

Next. Rebalance the bonuses.

EXP feels awful because it is so easy to get. Remove it outright. Or make it a free later promotion. Like a single unit having woodsman isn't game-breaking, but it is useful and potentially fun. Not all would be available and some wouldn't be available for some civs, like Iroquois and woodsman.

A lot of them are too lump-sum bonuses. Some could be changed. Like the faith, one instead of being a lump sum could be adding faith to the Palace. Preventing too early pantheon outside India.

The free tech should be changed to flat science, or just a science boost, not a whole tech.

The culture is way too low in comparison to the rest.

I would say, a bunch of possible ruins/encampment clearings could be a free gold investment to a specific valid (so requirements are met, like Stone Works or well) ancient building that has been unlocked and can be gold invested, (ie not past the production threshold). Also, a special block on certain buildings like Council, if you are building Stonehenge since that would be a waste of an investment.

So Monument, Shrine, Council, Barracks, Granary, Herbalist, Market, Stoneworks, Walls and Well (along with their unique). That is a fair amount of randomness and a decent bonus.

Another idea is an instant improvement of a visible resource, where at least one player has discovered the improvement tech for. Ie 'we have discovered farmers/herders/miners/stone workers/fishers who have moved to our lands to improve them'. Its a resource, so you won't get a crappy non-freshwater farm as a bonus, but instead a wheat farm/pasture/mine/quarry/plantation/fishing boats. That is some extra yields, and also an extra resource if strategic or luxury.

The border expansion is a bit too much. It is basically the Shoshone UA.


Then for the later game, they really need to scale up a bit. Finding ancient ruins after navigation leaves most as completely useless, except the explorer upgrade, the free population, sometimes the border expansion, and maybe the large faith boost.

Stuff like a free artifact, shipping back a luxury resource, larger hauls of gold/culture/etc. Exploration should have more of a reward than the world congress and trading with the AI.

 

[JamesNinelives]

IMO 1) Talking about 'fixing' ancient ruins is going too far to begin with. They aren't broken. They have balance issues but that is not the same thing. I understand people have strong feelings about the subject, but let us please aim towards balance and moderation. We've seen how strong demands for change can lead to overcompensation - even if this was never the intended outcome.

2) The Shosone don't need any changes. Are they strong? Yes. Are they stronger than other civs? No. The only times I've heard of people excluding the Shoshone from their games is because they are already excluding ancient ruins. Their UA works fine, and they don't consistently do better than any other civ either in player hands or AI hands so just leave them be.

3) The only ancient ruin reward that really needs adjusting is faith - it's arguably stronger than the others as one ruin can be the difference between founding and non-founding. Everything else gives you a boost but not a permanent advantage.

It should be noted than on higher difficulties the AI gets bonus starting units and is likely to discover ancient ruins at a similar rate the player. The AI also gets very significant bonuses over time on those difficulties that tend to make any one-off gain less unbalancing. For example in the most recent version the AI's strong science game tends to result in them discovering Fishing before the player (and claiming offshore ruins).

There also a number of civs who have advantages in exploration (and benefit more from it) pther than the Shoshone - for example Polynesia, the Inca, and the Iroquois. When balancing the yields that ruins grant consider that it will potentially affect their early game as well.

 

[Melchizedek]

I'd agree there is nothing about AR that demands a "fix" because having some randomness in the game is not intrinsically bad. Starting conditions are already random, and randomness actually isn't additive. A number of different things all contain some randomness: AR placement, CS placement, starting terrain, starting neighbor, whether civs on another continent go to war, and even which direction you explore first. These don't usually add up, they usually cancel. It is much more likely that some of these fall your way and others fall against you than it is for all of them to fall the same way (think of Pascal's Triangle). In one game, you get a great start but have to deal with a powerful runaway across the globe. In another game, you start in tundra but hit a couple free tech ruins. In another game you have bland terrain but you got lucky being Brazil and not having any other strong culture civs in the game. Randomness, taken as a whole, balances itself. And even if, very occasionally, all these different things go your way or against you in one game, it is even more strongly balancing over multiple playthroughs.

Nobody thinks Poker isn't a strategy game. Randomness isn't always bad for a strategy game.

 

[Hinin]

Talking about 'fixing' ancient ruins is going too far to begin with. They aren't broken.

Well, ancient ruins are a parameter of the game that a non-negligible part of the community desactivate because of its unbalanced nature despite the benefits it is supposed to bring in terms of gameplay, hence I think, that, like events, this matter should be discussed. The AR, contrary to events, are part of base Civ V, and have received very limited attention throughout the years (except for yield recalibration). I personally think that the AR problem is systemic and cannot be simply resolved through yield rebalance, hence why I asked for people point of view on the matter. Of course it isn't as influential throughout the game as ABC bonus or unique components, but it is an important factor in the mouthfeel for early game I think, and so should be discussed too.

The Shosone don't need any changes. Are they strong? Yes. Are they stronger than other civs? No. The only times I've heard of people excluding the Shoshone from their games is because they are already excluding ancient ruins. Their UA works fine, and they don't consistently do better than any other civ either in player hands or AI hands so just leave them be.

The problem I think people have with the Shoshones is more about how much their early success can fluctuate depending on the number of nearby AR. With two AR, which can often be found in the first turns, they can obtain a Scout and a free tech or later, when capable of embarking and reaching isolated AR, having a big boost in faith. The matter here is that the high-variable randomness is accentuated by the fact Shoshones can freely choose what they get, and so reap the benefits of a system that is unbalanced by principle.

The only ancient ruin reward that really needs adjusting is faith - it's arguably stronger than the others as one ruin can be the difference between founding and non-founding.

Allow me to disagree. Each bonus should be analyzed individually so that we can find the good balance, within a new system or not.

And there are many civs who have advantages in exploration apart from the Shoshone - for example the Inca, the Iroquois, and Polynesia, and the Aztecs.

The Shoshones have no bonus in exploration. They have additionnal territory and defensive bonus when founding cities, yes, but nothing else helping them in terms of movement, vision or fighting for AR.
As for the others you're talking about here, once again, I'm not saying that a civilization that finds a bunch of AR shouldn't be advantaged. I'm saying finding only one or two and being still more rewarded that other civs that invested more in exploration simply isn't a fair and interesting mechanic.

Nobody thinks Poker isn't a strategy game. Randomness isn't always bad for a strategy game.

Once again, I'm not against randomness : if I was, I would simply play on donut with AR removed. I'm against high-variable randomness (like the kind you can find in Heartstone or in the current AR system) and think that we can keep a level of randomness enjoyable by players without having to alienate some players that fear its high-end results.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I think, that, like events, this matter should be discussed.

Nobody is disagreeing with you there. Discussion is welcome. How we have that discussion matters though.

The problem I think people have with the Shoshones is more about how much their early success can fluctuate depending on the number of nearby AR.

I personally very much enjoy how the Shoshone play. If you dislike it that's fine, but you seem eager to make changes on that basis. Let the community respond first so we can see how other people feel.

The Shoshones have no bonus in exploration.

On the contrary, the Shoshone have the strongest bonus to exploration - they can choose a unit upgrade or a map reveal from their first ruin, which is very powerful. I've played Shoshone more than any other civ, and having an early scout or high-level pathfinder is an investment that usually pays off.

 

[Drakle]

The issue with ancient ruins is the super high variability. I've had games where I've gotten a single low yield ruin, to a game on Communitas where I got two dozen, 2 of which were the discovering a prophet which is nearly 200 faith on Epic. Along with a bunch of gold, techs, population and border expansions. I don't really like having to nearly always beeline to fishing if I think there are a lot of islands to access.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'm all for randomness, but AR have aforementioned balance issues, so they go off, which means Poco (and 3/4UC Maya) goes off, which means I has less funs.

Sure, they aren't game-breaking, and can still be fun, but I like where Hinin is going with this and I don't know how anyone can objectively look at AR in their current state and think that they meet VP's standard -- people can't overlook these facts while simultaneously clamoring for 'Gold'...

 

[azum4roll]

Other than the gold and faith (both give too much) the ruins are fine. Maybe the free tech should be fixed to the lowest tier one you haven't researched.

 

[moofe]

Yes, for sure, let's get rid of maybe the only fun unbalanced element left in the mod. Great idea! I mean a whole 18 people voted so it must be a problem, let's make sure it's not unbalanced, that way we'll fix it and then the whole game will be perfect, nothing will be unbalanced! Oh wait, theres already a button that does that for you. It's called disable.ancient.ruins.

Sorry for the snark but as someone who used to play this mod a lot, the continuous obsession with balance and the hunting down and removing anything that is unbalanced has sucked most of the fun out of playing this mod. I've outlined it before but playing the mod has become a flat experience of accumulation lacking many of the synergies, slingshots and random stumbles into unexpected yields that made the game fun.

That's just, like, my opinion man but I suspect I'm not the only one who has drifted away from the mod as it has catered more and more to a smaller and smaller group of hardcore players who seem singularly focused on balance above all else.

 

[General_Drax]

Yes, for sure, let's get rid of maybe the only fun unbalanced element left in the mod.

Fun and unbalanced calls for minor adjustments. If we will use your approach, we could just release VP with a list of parameters and option you can tie to your liking: we already can do that on almost all aspects of the game like diplomacy, maps generator, resources and many more.

Events and Ruins are under the lens because many players put them off by default and that cut off part of the mod itself.

Beside balance is linked to your mastery level of playing. I can roflstomp anything on Prince, playing confortably on King and getting challenged on Emperor, other players could easily tackle Deity.

 

[vyyt]

I am alright with ARs as they are, but I must admit I quite like your suggestion, it is well thought through.

I agree the XP is annoying - I would like it more if it did not count against the XP limit from Barbs or if it gave a completely free promotion. Or a rather flavor oriented unbalanced option - if it gave a unique promotion.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I like that there is some advantage to popping ruins with a recon unit than a military one (the rewards are better overall). I agree there is an imbalance though, and the xp reward seems particularly underwhelming.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I appreciate the effort everyone putting to fix AR but honestly i think they are just a redundant part of the game that can create some unpredictable scenrios for both human player and AI so i just turned them off for as far as i remember and my games felt much better without them.
To add to why the game is just better off without them is AI units particularly scouting lines start with free XP and they usually invest into trailblazer line which makes competing with them for the early ruins just not feasible most of the time.
I think if we really like them the easier fix is just to make all the ruins a bunch of minor/negligible bonuses like a small amount (for example a 3 turns worth of yields) of faith/culture/science/food/border growth/XP/gold so they just do not screw the game balance the way they do now