TSG 250 Opening Actions Thread

[vadalaz]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

Quick links: Upload submission | Announcement thread | After actions

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- Where did you settle and what did you build first?
- How did the Huge map size affect your early decisions?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

My favorite win condition, a reasonable starting position, and a civ that could do well on a large map, this could be a very good game. Spoiler alert: my game is not going to be very good.

I started scout-scout-one turn worker-shrine, and together with first-meeting La Venta, I got stone circles. My two scouts found a reasonable number of ruins, but not many gold ruins, otherwise I might have bought another scout. As it was, the area to the west of Stockholm was fully explored by AI scouts before I got any units there. After the shrine I finished the worker, and I set about making settlers. My plan was five-city tradition, but on seeing that nearly every tile south of Constantinople was an iron tile, and also it had a bunch of quarries, I decided to settle a 6th city. However, going this wide has really slowed me down quite substantially.

First of all, the capital needs to build two extra settlers, and since these cities don't get a monument and need some help building a timely library, the capital also had to build to caravans (which then could not be used to strengthen the capital. Perhaps even more importantly, to get six cities going, you need a lot of workers, and this was one area where my game had gone poorly. I had one small piece of luck: an unprotected Byzantine settler walked right into the arms of my spearman, but I did not get anything else out of that war: no caravan pillage, no worker, despite camping my spearman on her borders for around 30 turns. I also did not get an early worker steal from a city state; this was certainly in part my own fault, since you need to have your scout ready near a CS when it spawns a worker. In the end, I only started stealing very late from Ormus, because it had no military yet, despite the fact that I was friends with them (possibly the first time I've done that), but I desperately needed workers. I've gotten a few more steals of the CS, but a 3rd worker steal turn ~95 is too little, too late, of course.

The result of my six-city hubris can be seen in the screenshot below: I barely have any happiness, few improved tiles, and I'm still building my last library on turn 100, and the capital does not have a single world wonder. The final science output of this empire will be amazing, but it will be reached probably around 30-40 turns later than the quickest players. I will see this game through, though.

 

[Megalou]

Frustrating game where there never seems to be enough of anything and the life mission of the AI seems to be the snatching of wonders, although I did get Great Library, leading to an early NC. Rage quit is imminent.

 

[gerishnakov]

What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?

• How I could leverage the UA toward a science victory
• Go tall, try for a religion using Stone Circles, gift GWAMs to maritime CS for permanent food boost

Where did you settle and what did you build first?

• Moved warrior east and saw some cows to SE so crossed the river due east w settler and settled on the river between deer and marble
• Build a scout first, then monument, shrine, second scout, worker, settler, second worker, second settler, Temple of Artemis

How did the Huge map size affect your early decisions?

• Went with a scout before a monument to get scouting going as there’s going to be a lot of it

What tech path did you follow and why?

• Pottery first to push for stone circles, then Animal Husbandry as not enough production tiles to rush Great Library
• Calendar for the incense, then archery as barbs started encroaching on Stockholm
• Writing, then mining & masonry followed by push to Mathematics for Hanging Gardens

What Social Policies did you choose?

• Tradition, Oligarchy, Legalism, Landed Elite for growth, Aristocracy for attempt at ToA, Monarchy on T86

What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?

• Temple of Artemis on T76 in Stockholm
• Hanging Gardens in Sigtuna as not on fresh water, but it got built elsewhere likely in a capital
• Oracle in Stockholm

~T10 met Byzantium scout in the east, discovered lots of desert in the west and met Prague first
~T15 more desert in the SE, free pop from ruins in the south
~T35 Met Sidon first and found Old Faithful, met Willy’s warrior in NW nr Sidon
~T40 Moroccan scout found Stockholm
~T45 Met Ormus for 15G, witnessed Byzantine settler captured by barb camp in SE, finished writing and got an embassy w Willy for Prague
T47 Captured the aforementioned barb camp and gave Byzantium their settler back

Spoiler Turn 50ish :

~T50 settled Sigtuna on the mountains in SE nr where barb camp was, but Byzantium gets their revenge on me being a dick to them by taking Stone Circles
T52 Great Library built somewhere, Islam founded by someone
T55 Met Colombo
T57 Bought an archer in Stockholm as barbs getting annoying and can use it to clear camp for Ormus; Eastern Orthodoxy not founded by Byzantium
~T60 Took incense pantheon as backup, found Braga in the north to meet Portugal
~T70 Settled Helsinki nr incense in north clearing camp for Ormus & Sidon. Switched from Mathematics to Bronze Working as Sigtuna not ready for wonder building

Spoiler Turn 75ish :

T81 Polynesian scout found Stockholm
~T85 Catholicism founded elsewhere
T87 cleared camp for Prague and captured Zanzibar worker
T92 Beaten to Hanging Gardens by unmet civ
T96 found Brazil in the north

Spoiler Turn 100ish :

EDIT: Formatting

 

[Bemep42]

Tradition of 6 cities. 2nd - near sugar (in the same place as 6 The_Black_Vegetable), 3rd on gold, 4th - 3 cows, sheep, iron, truffles, 5th - crabs, 6th - SE coast (horses, bison, fish). I started with 4 scouts, then shrine - as a result, I took only the 5th or 6th pantheon and chose sacred waters, since all my cities are on the river. About 90 turn, all religions were founded and I was left without religion. Perhaps this is the only disadvantage compared to The_Black_Vegetable game, + I do not have cacao. I have 10 workers (2+1 from Hormuz and Morocco, 3 bought, 4 built), tiles are mostly processed, 2 caravans to capital, cities are growing (11,7,5,6,3,3 pop), there is a reserve of happiness. 5 turns to CS. I didn't teach philosophy, library only in the capital, and I didn't even start building in other cities. On turn 96, I lost the Hanging Gardens in the capital 1 or 2 turns, probably the 10th worker was superfluous). I closed the Tradition on the 91st turn.

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm well past turn 100 but nowhere near the end yet. I came here mostly to ask if the huge map makes everything cost more hammers and beakers? (gold looks the same) It's taking forever to build things even in cities with good production. From what I remember at turn 100, I had 3 cities and was waiting for the 3rd to finish its library so I could start on the national college. I settled Stockholm in place, and Sigtuna on the gold to the west next to a mountain, and Helsinki about 5 tiles to the south east of Stockholm near the iron, cattle, and truffles. After the NC, I settled another city to the north by the sugar, and eventually a 5th city to the south on the coast because there was another lux there (crabs?) and a coastal city just seemed like a good idea. If nothing else it can build Sidney Opera House and maybe a battleship or two.

Social policies were Tradition opener, Honor opener and the free great general, then finished Tradition. Initial builds were scout, scout, started a 3rd scout but switched to shrine when Pottery unlocked. Finished that 3rd scout, then built a settler. Temple of Artemis and worker were next but I don't remember which came first. Then I built some archers because I was getting nervous not having much military.

I did get a religion by gifting a great general to La Venta: God-King, Tithe, Pagodas, Feed the World, and Religious Texts. That's my favorite combination of beliefs, although I sometimes take Itinerant Preachers instead of RT. I was surprised Pagodas was still available because I think I founded the 3rd religion.

I built ToA and Hanging Gardens. Was going to try Oracle, Petra, and Machu Picchu but they all got built before I could even start them. Maria built Oracle, I don't know who got the others.

 

[vadalaz]

I came here mostly to ask if the huge map makes everything cost more hammers and beakers? (gold looks the same) It's taking forever to build things even in cities with good production.

Hammer costs are the same. Tech costs are higher on Huge size at first, but the additional tech penalty for each new city is lower, so at 7 cities tech costs are actually lower on Huge than on Standard.

 

[raider980]

Craziest start I've ever had. I thought I had lost the game on T2! I decided to check out the Incense, so I moved the warrior NE to see what was around. And I moved the settler to the Incense to see if it would be a good spot to settle - it wasn't. I'll just move the settler back and found my city in the original location. But first I moved the warrior further north to begin exploring and when I moved the settler back to the starting location, bam!, a barb camp appeared out of nowhere 2 tiles from the start. I figured the barb would take my settler and that would be the end of the game. Well, the barb did take my settler but no ending splash screen, and it was my warrior's turn to go. Say what? I guess that's the way it works, never lost my starting settler before, but I guess if you do the game gives you a chance to get it back instead of just ending. So my warrior moves to the barb camp and attacks, recaptures my settler and I move back and settle my capital at the original starting location - on T8

Spoiler Settler captured! :

• Before starting I debated between Tradition and Liberty. Sweden is usually played with Tradition I believe but since its such a big map I figured Liberty might be viable. Once I uncovered some of the map I chose Liberty, there was room for 6-8 good cities. Finished Liberty and chose a GS for an Academy next to the capital.
• Initial build order was Scout, Scout, Monument, Scout. I decided to not build a shrine since Theodora was so close. I figured she would go Piety and spread her religion to me - but the one time I decide that, she doesn't go Piety, and as of T100 she still doesn't even have a Pantheon - and neither do I. Oh well, Morrocco is very close and Ethiopia is not too far away so I welcome the coming missionary spam.
• Since the map was so big, I researched the techs for Chariot Archers and Horsemen earlier than usual so I could use their fast movement to hunt barbs and explore a bit and also built more units than normal. Went for a 3-city NC and got it on T95 or something - that's great for me.
• The only wonder I went for was Mausoleum of Halicarnassus and I got it.
• So now its T101 and I'm spamming 4 settlers to complete my empire. There is a nice section of land bordered by CS on the west and north with enough luxuries for 7 cities. I figure as long as I don't encroach too much on Theodora, William and Morrocco, I can keep them as friends for quite a while. I already have DoF with 4 Civs; too bad I'm not generating Great Person points yet. But the map is full of friendly AI so I think it should be possible to take advantage of the UA quite nicely.

Spoiler T52 :

Spoiler T101 :

 

[sebtanic]

Well, the barb did take my settler but no ending splash screen, and it was my warrior's turn to go. Say what? I guess that's the way it works, never lost my starting settler before, but I guess if you do the game gives you a chance to get it back instead of just ending. So my warrior moves to the barb camp and attacks, recaptures my settler and I move back and settle my capital at the original starting location - on T8

Wow, I didn't know that was possible! Sounds exciting Kudos for staying in the game after this traumatizing experience!

 

[sebtanic]

cities are growing (11,7,5,6,3,3 pop), there is a reserve of happiness.

How do you manage to have a reserve of happiness with 6 cities of this size? I'm at turn 125, and only founded 4 cities because my happiness was near zero all the time even though I improved all the luxes.

Are you getting happiness from CS allies, or lux trades? As you said you haven't started building in the expos.

 

[Bemep42]

I have -40 unhappiness and +45 happiness. 9 from the level, 6 from the pantheon, 4 from the Wonders of nature, 1 from the aristocracy, 1 from the stone workshop, 24 from luxury. +4 from CS, 4 from AI and 16 mine (gold, marble, sugar and crab). I still haven't connected the truffles and 3 incense, 2 incense are being exported.
Connecting resources, building Chichen Itza and circuses before libraries will help support further growth in the near future.

 

[RuntyBassoon143]

Played to about turn 50 and stopped. I think the map script for Huge is just bad. There is too much space and way too many useless tiles.

Liberty start. I settled one city north on the river, and the expanded west: one city on the gold near the CS and another all the way west on the gold desert river hill. If I were continuing I would just build archers, upgrade to CB and conquer Holland and Morocco.

 

[dumpstertrash]

So, before starting the game I assumed a liberty start. Huge map and needing of extra hammers. No problem, went liberty. I shockingly had a hard time finding ruins, and 2 of them were maps and another was barb camps. never got a culture, tech or upgrade ruin. Just lol.

Since it is a huge map I went triple scout then monument, was very late on shrine. Lost religion, which almost never happens to me. Oh well. I managed to squeeze in Pyramids in between my settlers. I first wanted the NE settle to cut off Byzantium. Then I wanted the gems very far north and was planning on filling out after that.

Filling out has been an issue. I was able to lay down one more city close by in the SE, when BAM, my declared friend plopped a city NEXT TO MY CRABS. Needless to say I backstabbed her hard and took her city with 3 comp and a spearman.

turn 102 pics. finished NC and liberty by turn 92. I plan on settling the gold to the W, and probably 2 cities north to connect my gem/mountain city. So I have 5 cities now and looking to get 8 minimum.

 

[Rhodro]

At turn 103 now. I've got a religion but its very bad because I didn't find la venta until very late.
Scouting went decent, i got like 3 pop ruins for my capital, some culture, some faith, gold...
I lost petra in sigtuna to William on the last turn
I got 1 city from byzantium in a peace deal and traded my gold lux to her for 240g. I razed the city because of the bug that causes peace deal cities to not work the city tile itself. Without that city tile that city had very crap hammers and would have delayed my NC too much.

I got NC at a decent speed with 4 cities, after that I made 3 more settlers. 1 is still running north to the gems.
I did get pyramids and stole enough workers. But still I feel not that fast. And that Petra loss hurt

Going for universities and workshops after that. Maybe squeeze in a few more cities. I think conquering is gonna hurt my friendships potential really bad so getting petra from William is probably off the table.

Spoiler :

 

[ForkOfSpite]

66 turns in ...

Initial Settler

Spoiler :

Don't like flat grassland, but the only way I wasn't going to settle in place was if my warrior found some production to the south. Moved there and found a sheep and hill. Moved the settler one tile SW and didn't see anything decent west of the incense, so I settled the river convergence on T1. That moved the stone and marble to the 3rd ring but moved the incense to the 1st ring, sheep and river hill to the 2nd ring, and picked up a cattle in the 3rd ring. Later, I found out the move put truffles in the 3rd ring too, so I have a 3-lux cap (had to buy the sheep, a flat grassland, and the truffles, though - still don't have the river hill either or the original stone).

Decisions Based on Huge Map

Spoiler :

Only direct effect was to start with a third scout, but I was certainly hoping I could try Liberty/Order science. Wish granted (at least, the Liberty part is granted), and I knew by the time the second scout finished - wanted to go monument then. Stuck with the 3rd scout instead which seems like a wise decision since I have a perfect multi-worker steal setup on Ormus (two so far).

Capital Build Order

Spoiler :

* scouts (x3)
* monument
* granary
* worker
* archer
* settlers (x5)
* Pyramids (started T61 and 5 turns remain)

Thought about Artemis instead of Pyramids, but that seemed greedy and certainly detrimental if I were to fail. I don't think any of the AIs I've met have gone Liberty, so hopefully I'm safe with Pyramids around T71 or 72.

Tech Path

Spoiler :

* Pottery (granary desperately needed for food overflow hammers while building settlers)
* Animal Husbandry (hoping for horses)
* Archery (no forests to chop and no mining lux in capital - archer useful, though)
* Calendar (capital lux tech - plus, I ancient ruined Mining)
* Masonry (capital lux tech)
* Trapping (deer and future capital lux tech)
* Sailing (expansion lux tech)
* Bronze Working (hoping for iron)
* Writing (embassies and future science)
* Philosophy in progress (future science and Oracle potential)

After Philosophy, I'm going for currency since I want Petra in Birka (and markets everywhere as soon as reasonable). Might end up prioritizing engineering and aqueducts before currency and markets, but I really, really, want Petra. After those two, probably metal casting (workshops before universities), but I want to time medieval entry (so maybe guilds or civil service) edit: only need classical to open Aesthetics - no need to rush to medieval. Although taking the Patronage opener is never a bad thing, I prefer Aesthetics for this game for extra great people to possibly gift away. I might struggle with total culture, so I'd prefer to just have the one filler before Rationalism.

Social Policies

Spoiler :

Liberty for the experience and it should be viable (and potentially strong) on this map. Still need two more policies for the finisher, so I'm not sure if I want to wait that long for NC. If I hard build NC, I'll probably take a scientist to plant, but I'd also consider an engineer for a different wonder (Petra or Machu Picchu, maybe?), a prophet for religion (but for counters, I think that counts as a scientist/engineer/merchant for some unknown reason). Might just take an admiral to gift to a CS.

As discussed in the Tech Path response, I want the Aesthetics opener. Then Rationalism and Order.

Religion

Spoiler :

Nope - no room in build queue (plus I moved away from the stone and marble). Haven't found any religious CS, but there's still a small chance I'll take a prophet with the Liberty finisher.

Core Cities

Spoiler :

I still have two luxuries to get online, so the happiness isn't as bad as it looks. However, I forced the seventh city hoping that the science will lead to a faster victory. But, I think moving Turku inland and omitting Linkoping would have been stronger.

Turn 66 Screenshot:

Spoiler :

Miscellaneous Comments

Spoiler :

CS Relations:
At war with Ormus, but friends with three city states. The first was Prague (culture). When I got the settler to where Birka is now, Prague had a quest for a camp within 1-tile. I wanted the friendship, so I sent that settler to the crab (Helsinki) and the next settler went back to the mountain gold (Birka). They founded on the same turn. As for the other two - one (military) was from finding a natural wonder and another (maritime) was for rescuing a captured worker. I'm working on a barb camp for the military one right now, and I should be able to rescue more workers for the maritime one - the CS is attacking with a comp bow and I have a scout there to steal the rescue.

AI Relations:
First three AIs I met (Theodora, Ahmad, and Maria I have all offered friendship. How long will it last? Theodora was already bright red for aggressive expansion when I only had 4 cities. I suspect I now have that same hit with all the AIs (but haven't checked).

That's What Friends Are For:
Due to a misclick, I left my last settler vulnerable in the forest two hexes west of Linkoping (accidentally moved the warrior to the cocoa). Thankfully, Theodora moved her scout SW to zone of control the barb axe.

 

[vadalaz]

Haven't found any religious CS, but there's still a small chance I'll take a prophet with the Liberty finisher.

Remember that you need to have a pantheon to be able to select a Prophet with Liberty finisher. To found a religion without getting a pantheon first, you'll need to build Hagia Sophia.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Remember that you need to have a pantheon to be able to select a Prophet with Liberty finisher. To found a religion without getting a pantheon first, you'll need to build Hagia Sophia.

Thanks - did not realize that.

However, overnight, I did realize ...

probably metal casting (workshops before universities), but I want to time medieval entry (so maybe guilds or civil service).

... don't need to time medieval entry for Aesthetics (only need classical).

Overnight downtime has me overthinking if I want the Oracle "right now". The social policy is free, so it doesn't really matter if it forces an "extra" filler (Patronage opener would certainly be helpful) plus it would almost certainly speed up the Liberty finisher. But, I doubt I'd be ready to engineer the National College - would probably plant a scientist or gift an admiral (or general or musician if there's a CS quest for those). Those are certainly good options, but I think it might be better to put some more work into infrastructure after finishing the Pyramids. If I decide that's the better play, I'll probably switch my tech path to construction and/or wheel before heading back for philosophy.

Plus, maybe Oracle will still be available later? I think I've decided that's the way to go, but I still have a full day of work to overthink before I can resume the game.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Plus, maybe Oracle will still be available later? I think I've decided that's the way to go, but I still have a full day of work to overthink before I can resume the game.

After thinking all day, decided to continue researching philosophy which finished T74. By then, the Liberty finisher was in 8 turns but I would have had to wait another 6 turns or so before engineering the National College. Didn't want to waste those turns, so planned on a scientist instead. As such, I would need to hard build the NC - decided to work on infrastructure instead. No Oracle (but still available - might go for it at some point).

T100 Update
* Pyramids finished T71
* Ormus got a comp bow out, and since I still have plenty of map to explore, peace on T78. Only stole two workers.
* Liberty finisher on T82 - scientist (planted on grassland horses)
* Currency on T89 - was about 3 or 4 turns away from bankrupt (about -20 gpt). Made adjustments and deals to get it down to about -5 or so. Switched everything to markets (except NC in cap and Petra in Birka).
* Changed tech plans to go for quick Renaissance entry. So, after Engineering, switched towards civil service, education, and accoustics rather than continuing towards metal casting.
* T100 National College finished and opened Aesthetics. Doesn't look like I can avoid another filler.

I feel so far behind, but that's coming from a Tradition mindset. Gold sucks. Happiness sucks so growth does too (a few cities still don't have a granary). Production sucks so I can't fix those problems.

T100 Screenshot

Spoiler :

 

[VitkaCZE]

Although I play CIV for many many years, this is my first GOTM I am attempting. I also never played with Sveden, but I am good at Science Victory. I will be happy for your feedback.
At the beggining, I made two scouts to meet as much Civs as possible before the map gets too crowded - to enable DoFs.
I wanted to make one city west and one east just behind the mountains, to be able to defend it. But on the east Byzantium was quicker with Adrianople so I put all my effort to create some decent army and took Adrianople and made another city next to it (my settler is there). Unfortnutely, barbarian raids took my some army and also this war with Byzantium did not allow me to make much buildings.
So my start of the game was not great but I hope I will be able to fully cover my region in the "midsouth", later beat Byzantium and at this relatively calm peace of the world to focus on science.
I started with Liberty and will go to Rationalism. I gave up faith (not my faith but the one in the game )

 

[jrwh]

Start felt slower than usual, I almost couldn't wait to get in the opening actions thread to figure out what was going on. I guess one of the comments above touched on it, the tech takes longer, but the hammers don't? Even though I definitely feel like my buildings are super slow in addition the the tech.

I decided from the screenshot of the starting lands that I was mostly likely gonna SiP and go for a GL->NC rush before expanding, given that the AI is pretty slow on emperor difficulty, and the map is huge. Pretty much ignoring Swedens unique attributes, and doing a standard-ish tradition play. The starting lands do look ripe for tradition growth. I ended up going for six cities instead of four due to the abundant land available around me.

I did in fact SiP, explored north along the river with my warrior, and went scout->scout->scout->shrine->scout->GL in the cap. Extra scouts cuz I figured I could snag a ton of ruins, was gonna go granary but ended up deciding I needed the shrine to get Stone Circles instead of relying on luck to scout a faith ruin (I got one that allowed me to pick a pantheon the same turn my shrine finished, lol).

After GL I squeezed in my granary before going NC, then one settler beelining for the desert gold straight west, followed by a caravan to feed that city, then four more settlers, for a total of six cities. I started Petra immediately in the western city, it finishes in 5 turns in the screenshot I attached. I've played about 10 turns beyond that, and I do in fact get the Petra as well. That city has a ton of production already which is great.

Otherwise, yeah, the start feels incredibly slow. My NC was up on turn 63 which was nice, but my expands are barely getting going, and I'm still finishing up my last few workers to get my land improved before moving into some actual buildings besides monument/granary. I do have 3 caravans feeding cap as well as Civil Service done and Education researching, so hopefully my growth explodes as I get these river farms up.

I feel like I'm gonna have to get some shrines next if I want to keep my religion going, as I don't have my pantheon in the eastern city that has the third and fourth quarries.

Even though I got the GL->NC rush, my universities are probably going to arrive around the usual time (turn 120ish).

Wanted to steal workers from Ormus as there was a nice flat desert tile to lurk on two tiles SW of their silver, but they've been super slow about producing workers, and I've only gotten three. I was able to gold-purchase a worker in my capital just as I was starting GL to do some chops, didn't get my first worker steal from Ormus until a few turns after that.

Slow game.