TSG10 - Game in Progress

[Aaronius]

I am posting here b/c I have cheated on this game by restarting several times. I want to communicate about my adventures, so I'm posting here rather than on the after action report...


Game 1: Settled in place.
I learned some valuable lessons in this one including: raging barbs + emperor diff = severe loss of life and limb. I am going to cheat and play this map until I perfect my military strategy. It has just about everything you could ask for stacked against you IMO.

Spoiler :

In the first game I built three warriors then went paper maker then natl college. By the time my NC was half built, I had zero warriors. I wasn’t even trying to clear huts, just explore a bit. It might have been nice to know there were no ancient ruins. That is half the reason to explore. Otherwise you could chill with one or two city defenders and find pretty much everybody by boat. That is how I would play the game knowing what I know now. Still these barbarians were vicious, and the fact that at this level two new units pop in two turns means two or three units must support each other to be truly safe. I suppose another strategy I might employ if I were to play again would be to make four warriors and send them off in pairs. I also believe that for this game it is absolutely imperative to go for the military policies very early. The 25% vs barbs + the flanking bonus seem practically necessary IMO. The great general is imperative for the first war anyway, which is a foregone conclusion if you are going to win by domination.

Game 2: Settled in Place. Theme of game two: Better, but not good enough…

Spoiler :

The starting location is decent for growth and happiness, but money and production is not so good. It’s hard to find many trading partners on this map, so the luxuries don’t do all they can. My strategy was to go all out after siam with a warrior rush and two archers. I went warrior – warrior – warrior – paper maker – NC. I bought worker – archer – archer, then built a spearman and another archer. My policies were 1st tradition, the 1st military policy, and the flanking military policy. My fights with barbs popped my first general, so I attacked siam’s newest city with three warriors, two archers, and the general. I didn’t lose any units, took the city, and got a worker and access to six iron out of it.
Siam offered a very nice peace settlement and I needed time to get the iron on line and upgrade all my units (warriors to swords, and archers to cho-no’s). It worked perfectly as I got about 15 turns of cash and resources, then I went for the kill. I took two more cities including the capital, paused to get healthy and lengthen those swords, then finished him.
Catherine went next to the longswords and cho-no’s fresh off the Siamese campaign. I wasted no time with the longsword tech advantage and the cho-no’s unique ability to hurt cities. Catherine was the weakest I have ever known her to be even tho she had plenty of cities. Next went Ghandi, which made me feel bad. There is no reason to ever hurt Ghandi, but the GOTM developers demanded domination, so, sorry… Ghandi had one war elephant to his name. Needless to say, both of his first two cities fell no problemo. I ended up leaving Catherine and Ghandi a city b/c I had way more resources than trading partners at this point.
It was obvious by score that Khan would have to go next. One issue I struggled with was whether or not to upgrade the cho-no’s. On one hand rifles rock, but on the other my cho-no’s had all these bombard bonuses that would be meaningless to a rifle. In the end I decided two cannons with another soon was enough artillery and turned all my longswords and cho-nos into rifles. Khan was militarily superior and even with me scorewise. However, I got to rifles first, so I attacked. I attacked as quickly as I could, taking his northernmost city with the loss of one rifle.
I quickly realized that Khan would be a bear. He had multiple caravels, which destroyed my two triremes, and prevented me from embarking. The terrain was perfect for defense. He had Japan and a CS between his proper empire and the one city I took, so once the surprise was worn off, I had to trickle down to him over hilly terrain. Luckily japan was friendly so open borders were in play. The CS was annoyed, but I built roads thru it anyway to facilitate my troop pipeline. Good thing too. Khan was a mo-fo. He had his special horses, musketmen, pikemen, and crossbows. Some older units too, but what really sucked was the quantity. The hills favored my defensive positions, but prevented me from advancing on his cities.
I killed probably ten of his units without losing any, but I couldn’t get within his city firing radius without taking a guaranteed casualty. Because of the same hills and the way the land bottlenecked and got mountainous around his frontier, I couldn’t get more than a couple units in at once, and I couldn’t get my cannons into place to bombard the city before my frontline was decimated. I tried several strategies of lining up my eight rifles in a smileyface line, with the three cannons right behind. I had to do this or the various horseman would kill my cannons with their superior mobility (btw Khan had the great wall, so I was one move per turn no matter what). I had some medic promotions that kept my rifle line wounded but alive, but I couldn’t get to within one tile of either of Khans two main cities. To make matters worse the city defense numbers started going up and cavalry started to appear.
I veered my army off to the west for a weaker city with more plains around it. Unfortunately the plains were marshy (dammit). I couldn’t attack the city by sea b/c my navy was dead and Khans was alive and well so I had to slog thru the marsh. This is where units began to die. I decided I had to take a city to establish myself and maybe get some favorable terms from Khan. Up till now Khan offered peace for the bargain price of all of my money and resources. My riflemen were still superior, but there was a frigate on the coast and Khan got his first cannon the same turn I reached the city’s firing radius. My flanks were being picked off inland by waves of horses and pikeman and crossbows moving freely on roads. My sea flank was being shelled by the frigate, and my frontline was now eating cannonballs.
I lost several good men at this point. It took me about ten turns to take that city and I lost at least five rifles and a cannon. I killed at least another ten of Khans units, and I finally had met the Greeks and Persians, so fresh money was buying fresh units that were coming down my fresh roads. However, I could not match Khans production rate. His cavalry and cannons meant my rifles and cannons would not be taking another city any time soon.
My view of my problem with this game was the lack of production from my cities. Since the entire area surrounding the starting position was grassland and flat, these cities were never going to produce that much. They were growing big and producing gold, so I was essentially buying every single unit. As an aside, I do appreciate how so many of the buildings now give you hammers as well as percentage gains, b/c you can make a pretty productive city on grassland now. Unfortunately that takes a long time to do tho. However, even with Greece and Persia buying my now numerous resources, I was cranking out about one unit per 3-5 turns and Khan seemed to be matching or beating that. His defensive bonuses and the terrain were making the task seem impossible.

Game 2.2 Restart at the opening of the war with Khan.

Spoiler :

The war with Khan really had me thinking. I was too cautious not to lose my units and ended up buying him time to reach near military tech parity. I wanted another shot at him going ballz out for the capital. Turns out it worked just fine. I think I lost maybe one unit taking his capital. My cannons never got into position to fire a shot, but it turns out three or four rifles with more right behind are more than enough to take a city with a defense in the low 30s.
The problem with taking his capital was that I had carved a hole right smack in the center of his empire. To the east were three cities on the coast packed really close together and surrounded by hills. To the west were three cities spread out on plains. There were more resources (silk and wine) to the east, whereas the west had one wine and a whale. Since I had Khan’s capital I already had access to all of these resources so any new cities would simply increase the quantity. I decided to go west since the plains would allow me freer movement and the larger city spread would limit the crossfire my lines would receive. Here my cannons finally got to heat up their barrels. I managed to take the two cities nearest the capital but realized too late my strategic error…. Unhappiness.
These cities were big, added no new luxury resources, and were not happy. I couldn’t finish Khan’s eastern front b/c of unhappiness and therefore could not get at japan in any expeditious manner. Greece was beating Persia like a red-headed stepchild, and snapping up every single city state on the map. Alex was ridiculously wealthy and bought my CS’s right out from under me within a turn of me trying to hold the ones close to me. With my unhappiness hovering around ten, my home cities largely unproductive in their grassland spots, my numerous puppets being good for nothing, and my fat bank accounts being good pretty much only for buying military units, I gave up. It was going to take me a long time to finish Khan and Japan, and Greece was going to runaway with the game. They had a mad tech advantage on me so I was never going to have an easy time militarily once I finished my continent.

The bottom line is I am just too slow. In all of these games I cannot find an optimal strategy. This map just seems stacked against me somehow. I hate grassland cities. I hate having to kill everybody.
I am going to play this one again from scratch. I am thinking now that the promotion saving is a key resource I haven’t utilized yet. I also just need to get better at making war. I am woefully inefficient and far too sentimental. I weep over every unit lost, and I feel as if I must conquer almost every city, b/c I just assume any civ left strong will come back to haunt me. It’s time to man up.
Open questions I have:
1. Even for a GOTM like this where you are trying to dominate, does it make sense early to ally CS, rather than just buying units, units, units? I am trying to do the calculus myself… I went the units units units route b/c early on money was tight and I felt I needed to begin the bloodshed asap with the ridiculous production advantages the AI receive.
2. When you have a Cho-no, and you upgrade to a rifle, what really does carry over? I have heard a couple of people extol the virtues of the cho-no-rifle, but I noticed that the promotions make no sense. CNKs are ranged units so when you choose the flat or hilly promotions it improves their bombardment characteristics. Rifles are melee/infantry units so once you upgrade you have to do the plains and hill promotions all over again. This makes me wonder if the bombard promotions are of any value whatsoever to the rifle. Obviously the two attacks per turn is cool, but are the range promotions useful to a rifle?
3. This is not a civ question, but it’s really bothering me. I have a macbookpro. I run Windows7 on boot camp. I cannot figure out how to “print-screen” on this thing. Obviously PCs have a “print screen” button. Clearly there is a way to print screen on a mac. But when you are on win7 on a mac, nothing seems to work. Anybody have a magic bullet for me? I want to post screenshots dammit.

I will play again, and I will kill everyone. This world will learn to fear the mighty WU!!!

 

[AlanH]

3. This is not a civ question, but it’s really bothering me. I have a macbookpro. I run Windows7 on boot camp. I cannot figure out how to “print-screen” on this thing. Obviously PCs have a “print screen” button. Clearly there is a way to print screen on a mac. But when you are on win7 on a mac, nothing seems to work. Anybody have a magic bullet for me? I want to post screenshots dammit.

I will play again, and I will kill everyone. This world will learn to fear the mighty WU!!!

Google is your friend.

http://talk19.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/print-screen-on-windows-using-mac-keyboard-boot-camp/ says Shift-Fn-F11 is the Print Screen key in BootCamp.

 

[Tabarnak]

What? Raging barbs?
Lol i read the rules and settings at lightning speed as usual.

Well i was wondering why some barbs spawned faster than usual...but they never been a big problem in my game. City States did a great job killing them. I probably scouted randomly and got lucky with spawning camps in spots where they couldn't get me easily. Raging barbs is not difficult to play when a lot of CS are wandering around. Best way to struggle with them is to play a multiplayer/deity/raging barbs/no cs game...humans stay at home...AIs like to travel and can help you in some way.

 

[Beef Hammer]

Rofl same thing Tabarnak, I kept yelling at my screen in my first game, "Why are there barbs EVERYWHERE!?" Raging barbs, makes sense now lol

Although everyone in my game is feeling the barbs, CS are all under siege, civs are expanding slow due to barbs stealing most settlers and workers, it's quite chaotic actually.

 

[leif erikson]

Got to read those game settings.

Please remember, never trust a map maker...

It is not as easy to manipulate a map in Civ5, but hope I am learning new ways to at least make things interesting.

 

[LoneTraveller]

How do you people play at these difficulty levels ? I barely get 4 or 5 units built that all the city states and civs attack me from all sides...

Is there a ''improving your play'' thread somewhere ?

Is there someway of watching someone else play ? like to see what a great player does ?

 

[leif erikson]

How do you people play at these difficulty levels ? I barely get 4 or 5 units built that all the city states and civs attack me from all sides...

Is there a ''improving your play'' thread somewhere ?

Exactly, the idea of the GoTM forum is to help you improve your play (and mine).

Please read through the In-progress and After Action threads, download the save and give it a try and ask questions of the other players as you go.

Have fun and good luck.

 

[ValZerian]

To LoneTraveller's point, do the replays from the top players get posted somewhere for those of us learning to watch their early build order and exploration/expansion strategy?

This is my first GOTM, I've been thinking of joining since CivIII but was always too afraid of posting a loss when it looked like everyone was finishing their games in half the time it took me. Really looking forward to it though...

 

[leif erikson]

Welcome to GoTM at CivFanatics. See you have been lurking for some time.

If you go to the Results and Congratulations thread and bring up the results chart, you can download the final saves that were uploaded to the system by clicking on the Base Score column. As I understand it, the Civ5 replays are not yet available. There are still issues in getting them to work properly. You can check here for more info on replay files as it seems some at CFC are coming closer.

 

[DaveMcW]

I guessed that I would be able to win without Astronomy, and gave up when I realized I was wrong and wouldn't get a super-fast finish date.

 

[Aaronius]

I am posting here again b/c I am of course breaking the rules of GOTM.

It actually took me four fresh starts to beat this map. I still believe after playing it four times, its a truly hard map. The lay of the land and the locations of other civs are what make it such a challenge. The only thing beneficial about this map is the proximity of good CS, and the decent starting position resources.

Game 3: Still not good enough.

Spoiler :

By game three I pretty much had the map memorized, which is a total cheat. The two things I wanted to try were (1) beelining for CNKs (2) saving promotions to make super rifles. It worked but my wars took to long to start and finish, and by the time I got to alex he had tech parity and superior production, and home field advantage. I took a city from him, liberated a CS, then I met my first artillery... gulp. My rifles and cannons fell to his rifles cavalry and artillery. Once I was kicked off the continent and all I head were rookie units coming out, it was hopeless.

Also, I vastly underestimated the danger of hostile city states. Alex was so rich and influential he was buying a new CS on my continent every few turns. By the time I was ready to go to war with him, he only had one CS on my continent, but I couldn't afford to ally most of them, so as the war went on, he allied more. In particular, Almaty and Geneva (I think) down by Japan and Mongolia... Wholy smokes! They took Tokyo, Osaka, three of khans cities and finally the Mongol capital! They killed two of my cannons and three rifles to do it too! When I would hit one of their rifles with either my city defenses, or my cannon, it only took off 1 or 2 points. When my rifle would hit their rifle, it hurt me twice as bad. Bear in mind this was all so far from my centers of production and my war with alex, that the only way I could fight was to annex the mongol capital, and buy these units to fight. So the units had no promotions to speak of...but still. I was in friendly territory right? I don't know how these CS units were so tough, but it was like killing the terminator.

After alex took back his continent and my Japanese and Mongolian puppets fell to CSs, I quit around turn 260.

Game 4: Its the economy stupid.

Spoiler :

That title is actually a double entendre btw. After reading more after action reports I decided two things. (1) I should take more advantage of what the start position offers. (2) CNK rush is not the fastest way to build an effective army.

(1) The start position sucks for production. It also sucks b/c even tho there are three spices, there is no one to trade with and barbs everywhere. Trading is also less useful when you are trying to kill everybody as quickly as possible, b/c everyone hates you. Therefore, I went for a balanced start more like I normally would. I took one tradition policy, the first and the flanking military policy, then the first liberty policy. I built two warriors for defense, captured a barbarian slave worker, killed barbs for the two nearby maritime CS, and built a great city. I used my barb killing good will and money to ally both CS, then built two archers to go with my two warriors. I used the liberty social policy to get my first and only settler and settled directly on the iron to the far northwest. I converted my warrriors to swords, and took my four man army to war. Killing Siam was like stomping on daisies. My swords were seasoned from the barbs and my archers helped. He begged for mercy, but I was deaf to the screams of his women and children. I took so long getting started, that he had settled five cities, including one on the west coast by my capital (he wanted the horses) between my two cities. Thanks for the perfect puppet buddy. I puppeted all his cities and erased him from the pages of history.
(2) Getting to longswords quickly was the key to conquering the continent. The second key to the overall domination game strategy was going for the naval techs next. After the LS, I went all the way to caravels, so I could find and therefore trade with Greece and Persia. Because Khan had been so powerful in my first game, and because Catherine was behaving herself, I went for Khan next. I added a third sword and archer to my army on my way to Khan, upgraded to longswords as I was finishing off Siam, and took Khan and Japan no problem. After taking Khan’s capital I gave him peace in return for two of his other cities with luxuries and a coastal option. I then took Osaka and Kyoto from Oda without the loss of a unit. As my six man army was preparing to attack Catherine across the sea, I was building up a second army. I also built a pair of caravels, one to protect my first army while in the water, the second to discover Greece and Persia and protect my future second army. Initially I just let my new archers and longswords guard the perimeters of my empire so they could kill barbs for experience. My six man army finally upgraded the archers to CNKs right before I went after Catherine. Catherine was easy. I took two coastal cities and her capital then went straight for Ghandi. I took Ghandi’s two main cities including about a dozen wonders and then sent my army back to Russia in preparation for the amphibious assault on Greece.
Greece was at war with Persia from the moment I found them. Persia was the only nation that ever liked me, b/c I attacked Greece ostensibly as a favor to Darius. I upgraded to rifles right as my two armies equaled three CNKs and three LS a piece, and I embarked with 12 rifles. Greece was tough and was already to musketmen within a turn or two of me showing up. But my rifles got the job done and he only took a dozen turns or so. I took one of his cities on the west coast of his island, and his capital in the east. I let him sue for peace for all his money, which was a lot, and used his money to ally all his CS out from under him. This hampered him so bad it was amazing. His loss my gain I guess.

Attacking Darius had no more honor than attacking Ghandi, but hey, Leif Erikson told me to. I win…FINALLY!

 

[cavenam]

Im having some trouble print screening.
I hit my print screen key, then i tried it with Ctrl, but it still doesnt work.
On a side note when i played i got stone-walled by monty. MONTY!!!!!!! So i've been using that little choke leading to the start and the city states to do most of the fighting for me. Im about 20-30% to Culture Victory, yet im constantly getting railed by monty. Perhaps i can try to get a defensive pack with someone truly powerful in my game?
I found that the starting zone really played to my strengths at CiV.

 

[leif erikson]

Im having some trouble print screening.
I hit my print screen key, then i tried it with Ctrl, but it still doesnt work.
On a side note when i played i got stone-walled by monty. MONTY!!!!!!! So i've been using that little choke leading to the start and the city states to do most of the fighting for me. Im about 20-30% to Culture Victory, yet im constantly getting railed by monty. Perhaps i can try to get a defensive pack with someone truly powerful in my game?
I found that the starting zone really played to my strengths at CiV.

The software does not give you a clue that it took the screen shot. Please go to: My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ScreenShots and you should find your picture there.

btw - is this for TSG10 or 11? You posted in the TSG10 thread.

 

[kcd_swede]

The software does not give you a clue that it took the screen shot. Please go to: My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ScreenShots and you should find your picture there.

btw - is this for TSG10 or 11? You posted in the TSG10 thread.

Also, if your system is like mine, you would benefit from downloading Irfanview (free) and converting the screenshots to .jpg format before uploading. The default format I think is a format not acceptable to the forums, nor recognizable by any but the most obscure Tibetan operating systems. Note, I did this Irfan conversion once and by magic all my screenshots get .jpg format automatically ever after. I bow to whatever god is responsible.

 

[leif erikson]

Swede, forgot about that.

Have used IrFanview for ages, highly recommend.

 

[kcd_swede]

I hit my print screen key, then i tried it with Ctrl, but it still doesnt work.

FWIW: On all of my computers/keyboards its <SHIFT+PrintScreen>.

 

[leif erikson]

FWIW: On all of my computers/keyboards its <SHIFT+PrintScreen>.

That's interesting.

For Civ4 I have to used shift+print screen. For Civ5, print screen work directly.

 

[kcd_swede]

That's interesting.

For Civ4 I have to used shift+print screen. For Civ5, print screen work directly.

Perhaps you aren't using a Swedish standard keyboard? How on earth do you servive without Å Ä and Ö?