TSG116 After Actions

[Coilean]

Ugh. How is getting sub-300 turn wins even possible with a science victory? Witchcraft!

The main thing that will slow down your science game in low difficulties is getting sidetracked by marginal Wonders and buildings to the detriment of expanding your population, especially in the early game when getting your early cities big ASAP should be your only priority; pretty much nothing makes beakers better than more population. A t200-220 40 pop capital + 3-4 other 20ish pop core cities should be very doable (barring having to deal with early AI aggression), which means internal food trade routes, getting WLtK day bonuses, maritime CS allies (and mercantile CS's if happiness becomes a limiting factor), and working food tiles over production tiles (except _maybe_ when building science buildings, which should be cash rushed instead, when possible). Tradition pretty much stomps in the early game for this, but a properly wide Liberty empire should be able to catch up later on.

Probably the next most important part of finishing the tech tree ASAP is making proper use of your Great Scientists. Planting them (except maaaaybe for the first one) is generally a huge mistake. A planted early GS might bring 2500-3500 beakers in by game end, compared to bulbing them at the end for 10k+. So mostly, you wait to bulb them until the last possible turn you need them, which is mostly to get Plastics and/or Satellites ASAP (for Research Labs and the ISS project in the WC), and saving the rest to the last possible turn (be sure to know how much science is required to finish the tree, so that you can bulb them as late as possible), when you can cash or engineer rush the final part.

Proper use of the Rati finisher/Oxford can also save quite a few turns: here, I saved Rati to finish Nanotech (12kish research, which then opens faith buying 3 GS at the end.. provided you make sure to have 5k faith by then, of course), then used Oxford to finish Particle Physics after popping all my GS (another 12k research), which made them combined worth roughly 17 turns of my final turn research rate.

In higher difficulty games, maximizing RA's is also obviously of key importance, but in this game I did not make a single RA; it is debatable in my mind whether at Prince difficulty they produce more beakers per gold than saving your gold to instead cash rush science buildings.

edit: should also say, don't bother with Great Works in SV: it's better to pop GA for golden ages, and GW for culture boost (preferably 8 turns after winning World Fair, so the boost is 2* higher, making them generally worth close to 1 SP apiece), when going all out science; Musicians are flat out useless.

 

[Sclb]

I think Oxford is better on Radio for early ideology, or even Plastics for labs. Particle Physics is rather late for my taste.

 

[Coilean]

I don't think using Oxford for Radio will shave much in the way of turns, on lower difficulties, anyway. Getting your Ideology 6-8 turns earlier doesn't really make much much difference unless you are competing with the AI to get the early adopter bonus tenets.

Oxford for Plastics is probably optimal, to get your Labs up ASAP; I didn't do it here because by the time I remembered to get it started, I already had enough GS to bulb up Plastics, and decided not to wait any longer. I don't think it cost me much though; using Oxford on a ~12k tech instead of a ~6k tech was worth 5-6 turns, possibly about the same that the 8-10 extra turns of having Labs would have gotten.

 

[mtt9999]

Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1870AD
Turns played: 305
Base score: 2043
Final score: 3349

Actually did faster than I thought, considering I did not get plastics until around 260. Decided to go wide early and then pick up science through the size of my empire. Typical I have a slow lag after I get satellites, so this game I focused on rapidly speeding up that process. This game I took a different late game tech path after plastics and it turned out to be faster without the lag after satellites. Usually I am waiting on science, not production. Had 2000bpt toward the end. Turns out had way more science than I thought, and ended the game with 5 extra Great Scientists just waiting around with nothing to bulb! Had I planned my ending a little better I could have gotten around 295 and used those great scientists more wisely.

I planted 4 GS and had 10 late game (with 5 wasted).

Is Tradition really that much better than Liberty? Because this is the only major early-game difference I am seeing.

I played this game as I usually do, a mixture of Liberty and Tradition early. Doing so allows you to pick which policies you need at a given time rather than blindly working through an entire policy tree merely for the finisher. I usually open with tradition opener, then work my way through 3-4 liberty policies, etc... Sometimes I can't finish both trees before rationalism, which isn't that big of a deal because in science victory the liberty finisher can be saved until the end with the rational finisher and take GS with it. The only negative I experience with this approach is sometimes I need to buy/build one or two crucial aqueducts.
Tommynt has a great hybrid liberty / tradition approach in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378

 

[Sclb]

I played this game as I usually do, a mixture of Liberty and Tradition early.

This is definitely suboptimal unless you're Poland which is what he wrote the guide, as you'll not be able to get both and have enough for Rationalism, Ideology and Scholasticism/Mercantilism. Every time I mixed liberty/tradition the finish time was at least 30-50 turns slower. Stick with 4-5 tradition or 6-8 liberty. The only exception is you can open tradition for the border growth when you play wide liberty, saves you with a lot of gold buying tiles in the end. Using liberty to train your settler then finishing tradition severely delays the growth bonus from tradition.

 

[mtt9999]

definitely suboptimal

I'm not sure anything is definite in civ. I also believe that Tommynt usually plays a mixture of trad and liberty, but that guide was specific to Poland. I'm not so sure that on harder difficulty Scholasticism is as beneficial early on as early expansion as I am unlikely to have many Cs allies and they are probably not generating much science output. Late game it certainly helps but by that time I have worked through my ideology for relevant policies and can get it then (with the help of world's fair and great writers)

Using liberty to train your settler then finishing tradition severely delays the growth bonus from tradition.

This is a stronger argument - although liberty provides more than just a settler. I understand my approach to social policies isn't what most people prefer, but the timing suits my playing style.

On a separate note, I love Colossus and it might be my favorite wonder. Too bad it sits on the bottom of the tree.

 

[Yarin]

Screwed up the opening a little bit (4 city NC turn 110 or so). But somehow, in the end, I almost managed to squeeze it under 300 turns... A little bit of faith for another GS would've made the difference.

 

[Beto_Java]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 116
Date submitted: 2015-09-01 10:24:55
Reference number: 33188
Your name: beto_java
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1947AD
Turns played: 367
Base score: 1662
Final score: 2276
Time played: 4:58:00
Submitted save: final_Elizabeth_0367 AD-1947.Civ5Save
Renamed file: beto_java_C511601.Civ5Save

 

[IDontFinkSo]

Your name: IDontFinkSO
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1955AD
Turns played: 375
Base score: 1865
Final score: 2486
Time played: 5:11:00

Turned the game around after losing my capital to Japan on Turn 103. It was quite entertaining after I got my stuff together.

- Describe any spying results: stolen techs, coups, or diplomacy.
I was behind in techs until renaissance. Stole 5 - 6 techs. Afterwards I used them for counterspying and for 3 coups in city states.

- Did England's unique traits ultimately play any role or advantage?
The extra spy helped a lot to get some much needed techs. Longbows were the deciding factor in the war against Japan.

- Did you meet your benchmarks? Better or worse?
My initial goal was to finish the game around turn 300. After I lost my capital and had to recapture it in a grueling war I readjusted it to below turn 400. Which actually worked.

Thanks for the game. Looking forward to the next one.

 

[sebtanic]

Did a replay and managed a t298 win this time. Stayed totally peaceful this time and it shaved off the expected 20-30 turns. Was friends with everyone except Japan, but didn't do many RAs (virtually no science output). Ended up not using Oxford as I had spare GSs for Particle Physics.

 

[Pnothy]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 116
Date submitted: 2015-09-01 21:10:21
Reference number: 33190
Your name: pnothy
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1956AD
Turns played: 376
Base score: 2503
Final score: 3337
Time played: 6:13:00
Submitted save: Elizabeth_0376 AD-1956.Civ5Save
Renamed file: pnothy_C511601.Civ5Save

My first GOTM submission... finally

I decided not to settle London near the mountain, but stayed near the resources. My goal was to play a nice relaxing game, with a polite empire that would be the envy of the world. And so it happened: London became the peaceful center of the world, trading with every AI by diplomacy and serving every city state (well, apart from Belgrade which got ... incorporated by a gifted Merchant of Venice, for its strategic and 'spicy' location).

The AI's were all quite small and friendly to me and one another, except for Pocatello who was the only real warmonger. He completely wiped out Catherine, claiming most of the continent for himself. I denounced him for it, like the rest of the world, but hey... I didn't need to mess with their affairs as long as he didn't interfere with mine.

England fought two very short wars, both initiated by AI. The first was initiated by Japan, attacking my forward settlement Nottingham (aka Cottonham). It was a massacre. As soon as the desert dust settled upon the Japanese corpses, all that remained was a messenger bearing the white flag - and the Osaka city rights. How's that to gain iron? The second war was after the Shoshone got out of warmonger targets and reached my newly puppeted Belgrade city. They DOWed, I defended, they lost, I gained all their gold and luxury resources. We love the King!! Eh... Queen!!!

Apart from this, it was a totally peaceful game. I went for liberty to expand fast to Kilimanjaro and Cottingham, piety for strong Protestantism to eclipse Spain's Catholicism (faith from pearls/gems, pagodas, cathedrals, jesuit education), patronage for total city state alliance domination and of course rationalism because well... the target of this was a science victory after all.

I had to turn down the UN call for victory and keep low on the tourism side; both cultural and diplo victory would have been faster (and even domination would have been very fast with my sleeping army of gifted units). Ultimately I wasted a few turns because of imperfect spaceship planning, but it has been fun. Thanks for this GOTM!

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Thanks for joining and submitting, Pnothy. And thanks for the write-up. Glad you had a good time!

HR

 

[Knap]

SV T310
GL and 2 City NC gave a slow start for a 4 city tradition game.
Apart from worker steals from Russia and Japan no wars, so not need for longbows. Had a massive army from City State gifts so probably should have taken out Japan.
Spies used in London and City States.
Freedom was easy for buying parts and had a Gs and cash surplus at end, so not optimal game by a long way.

 

[magritte]

My first ever GOTM submission (I've played a couple other games but never finished one in time) and I was SLOW.
Game status: Science Victory
Game date: 1987AD
Turns played: 407
Base score: 1694
Final score: 2091
Time played: 11:45:00

- Describe any spying results: stolen techs, coups, or diplomacy.
There was little point in trying to steal tech since I was always ahead, so I parked one spy in my capital where they killed huge numbers of enemy spies and had the others running coups in the city states.

- Did England's unique traits ultimately play any role or advantage?
The UU didn't since I never went to war. The extra spy gave me lots of city state allies without spending a lot of effort on it, though I also had tons of cities because I pretty much always led in science, piety and culture.

- Did you meet your benchmarks? Better or worse?

I hadn't actually played civ 5 in months and I was never more than a Prince player, but I did feel like the game was unusually easy, and I should have won a lot faster. Maybe it was the start position but it felt like I was never really under pressure. I had plenty of production so I could build tons of wonders and build up faith, maxing out the Piety & Rationalism traits and then using culture to get the science benefiting features of Order. I actually built my final spaceship part with a great engineer I bought with faith. I should probably have concentrated more on research and used my gobs of cash to buy buildings rather than build them but I have a tendency to hoard money in case I get attacked.

In contrast to the last time I tried for a science victory when I got blindsided by an enemy diplomatic victory, I was well ahead in everything...even ended up first in soldiers because my city states kept giving them to me. I bought every wonder I wanted and some that I didn't really care that much about: Brandenburg Gate, Cristo Redentor, Eiffel Tower, Hagia Sofia, Great Library, the Hermitage, Broadway, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Kremlin, Oracle, Sistine Chapel, Porcelain Tower, Red Fort, Hubble Space Telescope, Globe Theatre and Temple of Artemis. Pretty much all the national wonders too: East India Company, Grand Temple, Iron Works, National College, National Epic, Circus Maximus, Oxford University. I can't remember ever building so many wonders even on lower difficulties than prince.

Has the game gotten much easier with BNW? It feels like with caravans and cargo ships that it's easy to make a lot of money than it was initially. Also, the A.I.'s aren't nearly so abusive of friendship...they only asked me for things occasionally and they never minded that I refused to join them in wars.

 

[megistatos]

Turn 286 Spaceship Victory, 1832AD

This was like being at uni again. I played 100 turns last night, went to bed, and set an early alarm to just about finish before the deadline. I'm normally quite a slow player so played a little more erratically than normal. A very solid game though.

I settled 3 tiles to the east by the mountain, stole a couple of workers and built the Great Library, National College and Hanging Gardens early on, and built York near Gibraltar. Then I attacked Japan with a few Composites, keeping Osaka, Kyoto and Tokyo (with Great Lighthouse) and razing two others. I then failed to take Madrid with Composites but I easily took it and razed Barcelona with Longbows. Only after destroying Japan and Spain did I meet Russia and others to the North and overseas.

Then it was a matter of building wonders (missed Artemis but got the rest I wanted), and prioritising growth and science. Policies were Tradition-Commerce opener-Rationalism-Freedom.

The main mistake I made was faith buying a Great Engineer to rush Hubble instead of hard building it and using 2500 faith for a Scientist. I ended up rush buying 4 spaceship parts and building 2. If I'd had another Scientist and hard built Hubble I think I could have found the gold needed to rush all six parts and won maybe ten turns earlier. Possibly should have planned ahead and taken Mercantilism. A little more focus on doing what's needed, and only what's needed, to speed research and production/buying of the space ship!

 

[Sclb]

What I really hate about lower difficulty is the poor AI, I couldn't borrow any significant amount of gold and had to fund raise all of it, I think I had enough to buy all 6 but wasn't easy and had to really focus on making gold in my cities instead of research. That's one reason why I think a fast sub 250 game is hard on this difficulty. It is difficult enough to make it sub 280 on this game where usually that's on the slow side for deity for myself.

 

[megistatos]

Yes, on deity if you've got a powerful friend you can potentially 'borrow' enough from them to buy as many parts as you need. But in this game I should have focused on maximising income from buildings and trade routes from an earlier point.