TSG13 Game in Progress

[Pizzaspy]

My game is going poorly.

My high level plan was national college and then expand one more city and hunker down for a serious culture push with CS allies, hoping to be attacked to pick up puppets on the counter attack.

The science and culture were strong in the beginning, I was way ahead of the pack in tech, got myself the oracle, quite a few social policies in tradition and piety.

However, money became a pretty bad bottleneck and now I'm feeling the squeeze...fighting a war with Rome with no money, and two cities to produce units. ( one with horrible production ). So now that I am pumping out elephants to fight off Rome I'm making no progress on any scientific or cultural front...

Will grind it out and see how it plays out but I think the 4 city free wat with legalism approach sounds way better in hindsight. I think my only chance is somehow the elephants sway the war and I bag a few puppets from Rome. Even with my tactical advantage, I'm predicting a stalemate.

 

[killerloop]

turn 100, just finished my 4 wats with legalism. I can populate only 1 fully with specialists, yet.

Again am playing w/o RA's.

One city NW, 2nd city to the East along river having the spices and gems (+iron I later found out ;-))in their 3-radius, 3rd city to the NE next to coast with marble and Whales, 4th city (turn 60) to the West with the Spices.

Capital went 1st for NC, 2 settlers, 2 workers (+1 stolen), GLib, stable, temple.

Met all civs but one, 3 friendly, 3 neutral.

Went Liberty then Tradition.

Am 1st in Science, but last in Pop.

Let's see what the rest of the game brings, but with 10 luxuries and 2 iron I'm sure I will generate enough cash to survive. I guess I'll go for steel now and get some extra puppets,

 

[subber]

I played some more turns since my last post where I reported my struggle to keep up in tech.

finally discovered the whole continent (at 1900!). I had 5-6 cities around the inland lake including Rome (which is a horrible city for a capital!!!)
Looks like I am too much into wars, Washington to the left and Wu to the right. Took a city from Washington finally getting coal for factories, but Wu took Shanghai just west of Beijing back which i took earlier.

Ramses (12 cotton, 300 gpt) is in modern while I all the rest and me are in industrial. Patronage tree is filled now, I have 4-5 allies and get around 100 gpt. Could be more but my sales are crappy, I only get 5 gold for luxes, if at all. Nobody wants an RA as well...

I probably could take more cities of W&W after a painful fight, but happiness would just kill me.
Currently I have -10 happiness, with other Civs not really wanting to trade. Science is at 380, but I dont really have great people except for the ones I occasionally get from CSs.

Anybody an idea what i could do? How to stop Ramses?

 

[pontias]

First time at this level for me... hardly played any civ incarnations since the original when I was at uni...

anyway, went for the 4 wat leaglism thing. just got it on turn 121. pretty slow no doubt!
1st city 1NW.
2nd west for spices and a few cows
3rd east for more spices and gem
4th NE near marble.

Am at peace with all civs... rome being a bit of a tool but no biggy at the moment.
doing ok trading for some money - not sure i'm spending it wisely though...
just making a bit of a loss at the mo but think my trade links will equal it out.

pretty weak military - just got a couple of swordsman and a scout archer.
i guess i need to beef up a bit; use my wats and get exploring more. more or less done this continent unless getting a shock out east past china/india and arabia.

havent done any research agreements yet. never done those before so that'll be a learning curve.
everything kind of going ok i think... for now!
what should i do now to maximise these wats?

 

[Tabarnak]

I made 1 single self-rule for this GOTM : no legalism trick.

I'm now at turn 125. I went Tradition, 3 cities then NC. All cities are engulfing a lot of luxuries. I've sold a nice bunch of luxuries and bought myself 2 wats around turn 80 after a made of 3 RAs combo to get Education on turn 78. I hard built the 3rd one in cap. I run 2 scientists everywhere since then.

I discovered Astro around turn 90. I bulbed Navigation 1 turn later to gives me 3 tiles movement for my scout and warrior who took a big bath...and finally found the last civ on a island on turn 125. I'm at 22 turns to scientific theory(from 2 RAs coming for turn 147) and i unlocked secularism also on turn 125 and my science took a little jump. I now produce 129 bpt. Capital has an aqueduc and growing. I'm building the IW and i will follow with the PT. Other cities will focus on getting the Taj mahal and some buildings giving hammers and gold.

I think i will make a little detour to Liberty and go for a GE and settle him in cap ready for big ship parts later, then return for scientific revolution(2 free techs) for my last policy...i just hope maths will be ok. I don't feel that other policies can really help me more than a free GE( i'll also get another one from myself). I will sign a big batch of RAs when i'll reach industrial era. No need of CS so far, not allied one yet.

I'm guarded with Rome but that's all.

Edit : Seems good so far. I ended at turn 190 for tonight. With some calculations i should get all needed techs at turn 230(nanotech). I need 3 more RAs on turn 200(after unlocking Apollo) and policies should take place in time. I will finally get only 1 engineer. Most important is to be in a GA at the end for last parts. If only Ragusa can connect his damned coal in time.

 

[Monthar]

I think i will make a little detour to Liberty and go for a GE and settle him in cap ready for big ship parts later,

GE can't speed up ship parts.

 

[Muaziz]

GE can't speed up ship parts.

It can when you make a Manufactory for the +production.

 

[Monthar]

It can when you make a Manufactory for the +production.

You can buy the spaceship factory with cash, so using a GE for that would be a waste.

 

[Muaziz]

You can buy the spaceship factory with cash, so using a GE for that would be a waste.

I guess I am confused. These two things are not mutually exclusive. I am not sure how good a settled "Manufactory" GE actually is if you get one early. I really think the Manufactory needs to also count as a Mine to be really worthwhile.

But a Manufactory would also help hard build Apollo which is not modified by the Spaceship Factory (not that you have have the needed tech anyway when you first hit Rocketry).

So are you saying taking a Great Merchant over the GE is better since you can simply buy a Spaceship Factory which will give you a bigger boost? If you get one late (and your math shows you that you don't need the extra GS, than maybe).

So if you decide to skip Tradition altogether since you aren't going the Legalism route for free Wats, then it makes sense that you might take an early Meritocracy (for a free GP of your choice).

 

[Neuro]

I believe there is a bit of a miscommunication here. It looks as though Monthar was thinking you meant to use the GE to speed production of either an actual Factory building or a Spaceship Factory, when in fact you meant to settle the GE on a tile for a Manufactory.

 

[Airey]

I made 1 single self-rule for this GOTM : no legalism trick.

No Legalism trick is not necessary a bad thing. To have free Wats that early before Cities can assign specialists (for GS generation) and/or have enough (no NC) to leverage the extra 50% science multipliers is doubtful. This map, with abundance of resources, really doesn't demonstrate how well Legalism work in a normal map. With that much luxury sales, there's a lot of room to make other strategies work.


Why are those Lake tiles north of our capital named "Coastal tile." It's one thing to be making wrong decision by making trireme by a lake, but if the map info is wrong, how is that the player's fault

 

[MadDjinn]

No Legalism trick is not necessary a bad thing. To have free Wats that early before Cities can assign specialists (for GS generation) and/or have enough (no NC) to leverage the extra 50% science multipliers is doubtful. This map, with abundance of resources, really doesn't demonstrate how well Legalism work in a normal map. With that much luxury sales, there's a lot of room to make other strategies work.


Why are those Lake tiles north of our capital named "Coastal tile." It's one thing to be making wrong decision by making trireme by a lake, but if the map info is wrong, how is that the player's fault

The legalism trick doesn't always pan out as the best strategy, so I'm glad Tab. is not going that route.

To really make it work, you need a few cows/river farms post-Civil Service and ~6 pop/city. (2 specialists at 4 food needs to be covered by 2 river farms + 2 more workers to ensure you can still produce something there - or 4 cows and a stable) This of course is pre-Freedom x2 SPs. At which point, you can grow a bit more again. So going Landed elite for the 2 extra food seems like a really good plan (to be able to work 2 production tiles)

Post Wats, you'd need col's/circus where possible to ensure growth to a better overall pop level. I'd almost suggest not bothering to fill in the Wats until pop 8 or so. (and go get to Printing Press after getting to Astronomy so that you can add in the theatres)


edit:

As per lakes->coastal tiles... that change happened a long time ago, since the map scripts were putting resources in lakes, but not letting you make the buildings/workboats for them. It's really annoying as the Aztecs...

 

[Airey]

To really make it work, you need a few cows/river farms post-Civil Service and ~6 pop/city. (2 specialists at 4 food needs to be covered by 2 river farms + 2 more workers to ensure you can still produce something there - or 4 cows and a stable) This of course is pre-Freedom x2 SPs. At which point, you can grow a bit more again. So going Landed elite for the 2 extra food seems like a really good plan (to be able to work 2 production tiles)

or a Maritime

But the problem lies in the vast investment beforehand:
a.i the amount of hammer needed for monuments/temples (especially worsen when cities don't have high $ tile)
a.ii if used rushbuy for a temple, this basically implies exhausted all $/lux and minimal military builds: thus leaving AI DOW to chance => -1 RA partner...and this is if AIs don't dogpile on you.
b 2 social policies into Tradition, this means slower policies by midgame, and which almost implies won't be leveraging scholasticism when it matters. Especially for Siam, this seems like a huge waste.

edit:

As per lakes->coastal tiles... that change happened a long time ago, since the map scripts were putting resources in lakes, but not letting you make the buildings/workboats for them. It's really annoying as the Aztecs...

so instead of patching cities and letting them allow to make workboat, they change the lake tiles to coastal tiles? Buildings not allowed (by lake) is ok. I thought this is still a strategy game. (Not directing at anyone...just frustrated) Not able to jump on early coastal exploration is a huge set back in the strategy.

My thoughts on the early Wats:
- assign 2 specialists in 2 cities and get started on saving GScientists
- feasible @ capital and early 2nd city because they should have the most population
- other cities might have to start on military build to stay on par (or locate Iron)
- if can stay at top of military power, then RA chaining would be a breeze, research would exponentially explode with Scholasticism and GSs
- waging a quick war targeting 1 money cow civ would not be a bad idea to gain high GPT in peace treaty, use the spare money to buy even more CStates.

 

[Tabarnak]

I just do that to help people compare strategies. Since everyone do the legalism trick, it's kind of boring. Surprisingly, not much difference between both strats for first 140 turns.

But i begin to struggle at the end of the tech tree for 3 reasons :

1-I didn't sign a single RA from turn 48 to turn 117 to accumulate cash for rush buying wats(did immediately assign specialists with 4 pop satellites cities while growing with LE and granaries tho) and some important buildings that i didnt have time to build like aqueducs. Burnt some GS(3 i think, and used Oxford) to don't lose self-tech turns and pop more expensive techs from some RAs. I will have 2 GS left for last bulbs and i'm counting on 5 more RAs to clean the rest of the tech tree...i still have 2 free techs coming form scientific revolution. I expect 10 extra turns for nanotech(turn 240 approx., #3 explains why).

2-Not building temples and not allied a cultural CS for a long time reduce some important policies potentially acquired.

3-Damned Washington declared war before RA will finish(i'm currently at turn 210 and RA was due for turn 215) and i'm 2 eras ahead everyone. I had to sign another RA that cost me 600 gold(gave 50 gold too)! I think i got lucky to get enough rich AIs in time through the game tho.

But i got good news. I found a site east of Washington with an accessible 3 coal tile. A settler and a worker with muskets are going to land in a few turns. Unfortunately i can't sit on it. The problem is i'm at war with this guy. I actually tried to go there 10 turns before but i failed(with a single unit to protect him).

I need only 1 more policy(the obvious one), and i hope for no broken RA(s) and i don't technically need to ally a single CS(since i will have coal by myself) for the rest of the game. All money will be transfered in factories and maybe a spaceship elevator.

RAs can be done in industrial quantities on this map, surpassing Siam's UA.

 

[MadDjinn]

or a Maritime

But the problem lies in the vast investment beforehand:
a.i the amount of hammer needed for monuments/temples (especially worsen when cities don't have high $ tile)
a.ii if used rushbuy for a temple, this basically implies exhausted all $/lux and minimal military builds: thus leaving AI DOW to chance => -1 RA partner...and this is if AIs don't dogpile on you.
b 2 social policies into Tradition, this means slower policies by midgame, and which almost implies won't be leveraging scholasticism when it matters. Especially for Siam, this seems like a huge waste.

It's not that vast of an investment early. monument->temple. Just ensure to either settle on a hill or have workers on standby to quickly improve a few production tiles. Don't settle in the middle of grassland/plains... no production there.

don't rush buy temples until after Education is RA'd and you are able to get your next policy. (So wait for the SP pick to occur, then rushbuy)

Same for building the temples. Leave them at 1 turn to complete until you're ready to get the SP/have Education.

Using the above, there's no worries about DoW to break RAs other than the normal random chance.

Given that you're usually 3-4 policies in before getting to medieval, I doubt this slows you down much. Once approaching medieval, grab a few cultural CSs to power through to Scholasticism.

 

[xiziz]

I did not manage to finish my game before going on vacation to the other side of the world. So I think I'll finish late now, will probably end up staying in war for the rest of the game, to keep tabs on Arabia and Egypt. Guess I'll have both TSG13 to finish and TSG14 to start when I get back home.

 

[Airey]

It's not that vast of an investment early. monument->temple. Just ensure to either settle on a hill or have workers on standby to quickly improve a few production tiles. Don't settle in the middle of grassland/plains... no production there.

Ya, I know that. But these productions can be put elsewhere.


I am trying to upload my playthrough on youtube.
Will post link here when it's done.

 

[subber]

I am trying to upload my playthrough on youtube.
Will post link here when it's done.

absolutely looking foward to a video playthrough of the GOTMs by some of the pros...

 

[Airey]

absolutely looking foward to a video playthrough of the GOTMs by some of the pros...

no where near Pro compare to other players here...just trying to have fun


The video editing is taking longer to render than I thought...
So I'll keep updating them past the monday deadline.

With no early (pre 100 turns) RAs nor instant Wats some highlights for comparison:

Education discovered at T94

Scholasticism at T100

Research Rate 141bpt at T125; gold +61gpt
(this is the only reference point I can find base on other people's game play feedback):

And here are the Youtube Videos I uploaded so far (more are uploading)
- please keep in mind these are uncut live records, so sometimes you may see me idling doing nothing on the screen
- I cannot talk and think at the same time, so these videos do NOT have commentary, however
- I'll add Strategy game notes in the description section after I review these videos in future date

*Edit: the audio recording quality was terrible as I was not familiar with the setup. I'll be skipping trying to fix GOTM13 recording. Will do for GOTM14 with better quality.

 

[Tabarnak]

There are many ways to get around 130-150 bpt for turn 125. But the winner strat is the one who can bring even more higher for next 70 turns. Airay, +61 gpt is solid.