TSG17 Game in Progress

[EsoEs]

I beat this one in about 7 hours but now Im thinking about replaying it.. it seems like I may have just gotten really lucky as I never got backstabbed through the whole game, I took my continent 1 civ at a time without any problems from anyone else, who had all been deccing eachother (and not me) all game. I dunno, theres always that Siam culture game I've been wanting to play, and that China domination game, oh and the England islands map...

 

[RedRover57]

I feel like I'm playing this game in slow motion. Such a slog. I took out Monty's capitol (left him one city) and then was backstabbed by both Siam and Russia. Russia sent a pitiful army then settled for straight peace when I killed them all. I took out Siam's capitol but it wasn't fun trekking through the rough terrain (this is an awful map!) and having to be very careful with my keshiks because of the elephants. I'm top score on my continent and neither Russia nor Greece are much of a threat, but I have terrible happiness issues and really low production in my cities. Because of the low production it took forever to build the NC (although somehow I am leading in tech) and I haven't been able to build any other wonders after the GL so I missed Hagia Sophia, PT and ND (which really would have helped my happiness situation). I think my production is like 9 hammers in my capitol on turn 180 . I'm sure I will eventually win this thing but it's like pulling teeth. I need the Forbidden Palace badly but it will probably take centuries to build.

Have I mentioned how much I hate this map?

 

[EsoEs]

Because of the low production it took forever to build the NC (although somehow I am leading in tech) and I haven't been able to build any other wonders after the GL so I missed Hagia Sophia, PT and ND (which really would have helped my happiness situation). I think my production is like 9 hammers in my capitol on turn 180 . I'm sure I will eventually win this thing but it's like pulling teeth. I need the Forbidden Palace badly but it will probably take centuries to build.

Everyone complaining about the low production isnt playing this game correctly. There is room for 2 very nice production cities to the east in the hills there with fish sheep and rivers for food. Also to the southwest is another excellent site for production, 2 fish and lots of nice hills. Also I annexed the Aztec cap, it is an AMAZING production site. Yes ourcap sux for production (nice for gold or food/great people though depending on your preference) but there certainly isnt a lack of nice production city cites.

 

[Maxym]

I have made it that far with most backstabs in all of mine previous games combined.
Siam dowed as friends just after I accepted montys peace for some lux and two cities on peninsula connecting to Siam. Very smart IMHO as I was gonna Dow him in few more turns hoping to get his cap instead before he can spam elephants. Inhad to survive waves of archers warriors pikes and swords before being able to move forward, and that only after Russia dowed him. I was working on his cap after taking a city SW when Monty backstabbed with a legions of mustkets. Lost his luxes and horses and ended up with unhappy in mid 20s and negative horse. I thought I was toast but managed to sell on of his old cities to Askia and trade for horse and get back on track. Siam is capless and now turning back to Monty while waiting for siam to offer better terms. Fully expecting Russia or alex to stab me now

 

[RedRover57]

Everyone complaining about the low production isnt playing this game correctly.

"Correctly" is subjective. I focused on conquest so wasn't able to build up secondary cities early or would have had even worse unhappiness issues. I had to keep secondary cities small (4-5 pop), which wouldn't generate enough hammers per turn to build a wonder like HS or PT in any reasonable time. Now I have good production sites but I have also conquered most of the continent, and I was able to finally alleviate my unhappiness problems through the Honor policy (+1 happiness per garrison), Forbidden Palace (took me 22 turns to build in my capitol) and annexing another puppet every time I accumulated 600 gold.

Having Siam as my second target (after Monty) was an issue because of the size of the cities (several over 20 pop). You get killed with unhappiness when puppeting such large cities at a point before you have the policies or wonders that can help.

 

[Stormreaver]

Currently at turn 107 or so.

Settled cities to the west (marble/horses/fishes/cattle), east (pearls/horses) and south (wheat/wine). The southern city might have been a stupid move as it provides food, a lux and not much else. Will surely be a fantastic GP farm further on though... Have also allied with Monaco after getting influence from killing a barb camp.

Got the GL before turn 70 in my capital, which got me Civil Service, and used the Liberty GS to bulb Chivalry in turn 95 or so.

Monty DoWed me at turn 84, nullifying a RA I had with him that would expire 7 turns later. Since he was already at war with Siam I had hoped he'd wait some more. He didn't send much troops though, and after dispatching the first wave and upgrading a few Keshiks I went after him. Having big problems with the terrain though, and have lost a couple of units on his turf...

Have met Russia, Greece, Siam and Monty, signing RAs with the others when I can but sadly have few extra luxuries to sell.

 

[Half Nelson]

I needed the challenge of a jump to Immortal as the last few TSGs were comfortable if unspectacular wins. Domination is not my forte but Keshiks + Khans seem to be the ideal combination to start with. I had a quick look through RedRover57’s excellent Deity Challenge (Mongol) thread for some tips before diving in. The plan was basically to get horses hooked up with 3-4 cities, beeline to Chivalry and take it from there The starting location looked very production sparse so I chanced moving both warrior (S) and settler (NE) to nearby hills. This didn’t reveal any Promised Land so I slipped back and settled on the river plains S of the start spot (the BFC would cover more hills to S but lacked immediate access to the lux tiles). Early builds were scout, monument, worker, Great Library (got it!), 2 xHA. I took Liberty:- free settler went on a super W coast spot for stone/horses/3xsheep (and eventually fish/pearls) and free worker helped chop the GL. The semi-isolated start helped me develop infrastructure and build up a happiness buffer. Was lucky with ruins, getting Mining and an Archery upgrade. I decided to keep my Scout Archer as a spotter and built a second scout who just squeezed past Monty before the inevitable DoW. I made an alliance with Monaco to help in the fight. Now at turn 99. Keshiks are due in 10 turns (late for some, but I’m happy with it). The war with Monty has been a hit-and-run affair due to the terrain but has given me 3 well-promoted HA and a Khan (but I lost my spotter). I now also have a Horseman and a pike for city attack and 2 more HA on the stocks. I am hoping 5 keshiks will be sufficient to take down Monty:- he has been pounded on both sides by my HA and Siam (who are also a bit battered from wars with Russia and Greece). I am tempted to capture Monaco once my influence has waned:- it is a nice spot and strategically placed. I settled a third city on the S Coast (next to marble) and am looking to drop a fourth on the river to S to grab the wine and plains. I should have 14 horses to play with soon and will complete National College in 12 turns. I should push for Education after Chivalry, but I need to back-fill a bit (Sailing certainly, Bronze-Working anyone?.... hmmm, actually a barracks in my second city , now with stables, would make a mean Keshik factory). Happiness is hovering around zero but I will try Piety and (if all goes to plan) Notre Dame. My capital needs to switch to growth shortly if I am to make serious Tech headway. I can’t see many RA opportunities until I have cash to burn (No Rationalism if taking Piety, PT a long-shot) so GP specialists will be essential. I agree with the consensus that this would not be the Great Khan's choice of battlefield:- where are the endless plains????

 

[RedRover57]

@ Half Nelson

I would suggest against conquering Monaco as it may be the only CS you get, with Siam (or Greece) buying the rest of them up (at least this is what happened in my game). The extra culture is nice.

You can conquer the entire continent with 5-6 keshiks plus something to cap the cities (I used a LS, but a knight/cav would also work). I built a lot more keshiks, but used many of them to stay back and defend my original territory (particularly nice after getting the +1 happiness per garrison policy). They are great for defense because of their mobility.

This map plays a lot like an archipelago. I have 3 distinct sites on my continent, separated by land bridges/rough terrain and connected via harbors. The next phase (after conquering the original continent) will require building a decent navy.

 

[subber]

started off according to Madjinns suggestion. thanks, i guess thats the way to start off. built chariots and settled 2nd city sw. 3rd and 4th followed, e and se of capital. met monte. found lots of huts. attacking monte was difficult. I was finally about to get him but then he made a peace offer i couldnt resist, leaving him with 2 cities and me with -17 happiness. thought i could sell cities for good money, but hardly got anything. :-( got my keshiks around turn 120, quite late probably... when I met siam in turn 150, he had dozens of elfants along with katapults and other units - every human would have been bankrupt with this kind of army. didnt take him long to declare war on me which is lasting for 50 turns now. he wont accept peace other than for ridiculus conditions. we had a fight for montes cap, I eventually took it but wasnt able to defend. now i moved back to my original part of the continent and try if I can tech a little ahead to start another try to attack. siam is allied with everyting on the map, I wasted 2k gold on Cs before they declared war :-(
if montes cities would have been a little more accessible I could have taken his terretory and would be in a different position now....

 

[Half Nelson]

@RedRover. Yes I wouldn’t normally contemplate such a CS attack, but getting round the landbridge mountains looked like it would be a serious problem because Monty plonked his second city right on the N route (behind the river) and Monaco (although Friendly) seemed to have units on the S exit. However, I just managed to squeeze my army past Monaco before my influence waned and the Aztec capital is now mine !!! (turn 129).

Spoiler :

I have therefore re-invested in Monaco instead of zapping them and made peace with Monty (who only ever had 2 cities) rather than finish him off and raise hostility elsewhere. The fragile connection between homeland and army will depend on Monaco until I research the bridge tech (Engineering?) because my OB with Monty doesn’t unblock the path through his “new” capital due to the river (AARGHHH...!). I guess many players have similar problems with this map. Now into the forest towards Siam:- he has Elephants and swords but is already at war with Alex and I see Cathy is prepared to join in for a reasonable bribe. My homeland is defended by a trireme and a warrior so I need more defence because Greek and Russian triremes are snooping around. Mid-table in Military and Tech, Happiness and Money hovering around zero.

 

[killerloop]

0 AD turn 115

What a slow game, and what a "nice" starting location!

I moved my warrior south and my settler north on the silk. Settled here. Popped 5 huts, met Monaco and Monty and before Monty and I had open borders I met Alex and Siam showing up on the other side of Monty's territory.

Settled 2nd city south near wine, silk, wheat and FP'S. The 3rd city went east near horses, marble.

At turn 50 I finished GLib + CivServ. Around turn 75 NC and at turn 95 I had Chivalry with 1 RA.
Took Monty's silver city, and then went through Monaco to take Teotihuacan (size 11) and Monty's Capital (size 9). Then settled for peace for Monty's last City.

At turn 60 Monty declared despite the 8gpt I still owned him for a worker-loan. He showed up with 7 jags and a couple of archers, but my 1 pikeman and 2 archers behind the river handled that w/o problems

All my money went in horse/chariot upgrades, a worker, and 2 Lib's. Only signed 1 RA (350 gold) sofar (and don't think I will need more). I have 14 horses hooked up now. 7 Keshiks and 1 horse are operational.

I was able to build HG in Beshbalik, and got me HS and PT from the GE's I popped. Astronomy I will have in around 10 turns. I have no Uni's. Because of HG growth is great, but happiness needs to be tightly managed, esp. since I'm on conquest now. Mistake: I should have gone for ND, and not PT, but I'm so used to this double that I forgot again that this is a domination game :-(

As others have been writing, we're Tech leader since long, despite slow production locations. This for me is rare on immortal.

I hope I can find the others soon....., to finish below the 200 turns minimum, my init target of 150 is already impossible.

 

[AlexAdam]

OK, started yesterday and things look good - I just finished my second session. Keshiks rule!

I took my time to expand the politicaly correct way, just to build up my economy before I begin my ruthless assault. In the end that only happened on turn 133, when I saw that Monty was getting prepared for his second pathetic assault on my territory - in the first one, which happened around turn 60 (not so early as I was expecting since I play deity) he capitulated after wasting a few pikemen on my allied CS. Catherine also DOWed me because I befriended Alexander, but she also failed to cause me any problems, even if she was "threatening my very existence" blah blah (what a chikens**t my military advisor is...) Anyway, she offered me a peace treaty when I got my army built up.

By turn 170 I had taken Technotitlan with 3 Keshiks (two of them already promoted with logistics plus siege bonus) and a longsword I almost lost when he crossed the river. Not hard, since I didn't lose any units, but not easy either, since I almost got 2 of them killed. But in the end, the key was upgrading those 2 Keshiks. Once I took the capital (plus one more city) I decided to offer him a peace treaty, because I saw he was in war with Siam and I hoped he could waste a few of their dreaded Elephants before I take them on. Which will happen soon enough, since I accepted Catherine's offer to DOW him in 10 turns.

What a nasty lady she is, hey?

Now I have annexed Technotitlan and plan to purchase a couple of pikemen before I rush on. Alternatively, I could spend that money to ally Hanoi which is currently allied with Siam and offering him 6 iron... Maybe that will get me a 50% attack bonus on his trebuchets, will see...

My longterm plan is to conquer Siam and then persuade my pal Alexander to DOW on Catherine. Things are close at the moment (that's how I like the game, I just hate runaway civs) but I have the momentum since my economy is strong and soon enough I will have Unis.

Upgrading the Keshisks to tanks should be awesome

 

[JustAnother]

Got keshiks around turn 80. Defeated Monte , send most of army over the ocean to hit Rome...Askia was alittle too strong for my army size at that time while my remaining army march towards siam. Finished Rome and Siam around turn 130 and decided to stop. This map is kinda easy except for getting through the narrow path of monte area. Don't think I'll finish the game since its a sure win from here. Askia will be easy once I get rifleman. Those on my continent are basically walkover. It shouldn't be too hard to finish this game before turn 180. Looking forward to a harder challenge next game.

 

[Tabarnak]

Don't think I'll finish the game since its a sure win from here.

I played until turn 102. I settled on the hill north-west. With some scouting, i realized that i can settle many cities around without being too slow. When i saw Monty blocking the way, i opened borders and traveled north. I built the NC first at turn 48 or 49, then unleashed 4 more cities around.

My tech path is not the optimal way to get early keshiks, but more about mid term development to ensure enough happiness and gold among the processus. I don't have keshiks yet(15 turns or so), but my 5 cities are now only producing units until....well i will see later. I allied Monaco, which helps a lot. Went at war with Monty around turn 85 then made peace for a large pot of everything. I oversold luxuries meanwhile and i'm almost ready to unleash an army. When astro will be discovered, i will rush buy caravels and send 4 armies in optimal ways around the world and try to blitzkrieg everyone.

2 great engineers are waiting for education ot be discovered. Then i will rush both PT and ND.

Immortal can be tricky sometimes, and i just want to be sure to not fall in a death trap.

Pic of situation

Spoiler :

 

[isopaha]

After like 7 sessions, I'm still fighting with this one. Almost constant war since Monty DOW'd on me around turn 50. Had a lenghty war with him first with chariot archers and warriors, but only managed to capture his first city after I got Keshiks via liberty finisher GS and upgrading my chariots. Even then it wasn't easy as the terrain is tough. What made it even harder was the fact that he had the Great Wall and spammed only pikemen. But when I capture the first city, taking the second one wasn't that hard. Just as I was about to finish him my taking his 3rd and final city, Siam DOW'd, so I got a peace treaty with Monty and step by step captured quite a few of Siam's cities.

Currently at 1888AD Monty is still alive with 2 cities, one cutting my empire in half, but I don't mind. I think there is a strange bug going on, as Monty has about 25 pikemen scattered all over the place and even embarked near his cities. He has had -35 GPT for almost the whole game, and he has done practically nothing. Only recently he just DOW'd Siam. I had peace with Siam for a while, but as he was still tech leader and otherwise pretty strong after I'd taken some of his cities, he had a strong army at my border, preventing me from continuing my conquest. During the game other AI's had beaten some of my competition, so only Russia and Songhai remain in possession of their capitals.

My invasion army consisting of Mech inf, artillery, battle ships, carriers with fighters and most importantly hugely experienced Keshiks (!) has started moving towards Catherine, who DOW'd me after I DOW'd Siam, even when they were at war with each other and I had really friendly relations with Cathy. I had prepared to invade Cathy earlier by capturing Stockholm, so I had had a nice beachhead close to Moscow to start the invasion from, but Cathy took it from me as I had no proper defences there. The Keshiks are awesome, even when I have lost a Keshik from time to time, one of them is close to reaching level 10. Warfare is really slow with them, as micromanagement (with road building) is really important with them, but they can seriously hurt even mech infantry without even being damaged themselves! This type of warfare has lead to a situation where I'm not taking full advantage of the Khans, but that's a sacrifice I've had to live with.

I'm usually not a warmongerer, so this game has been a learning experience, and I think I should be able to reach domination victory at a late date. Still can't understand these players who reach it even before 1800AD, especially with some AI's on different continents.

 

[Tabarnak]

Played until turn 161...

Got Chivalry around turn 115, Astro turn 125ish.

I lost some units to Monty, he was tough with all these boats firing at my keshiks. Then i went to Siam and Rome at same time. Rome was easy. Took another city close to Japan capital, then captured it also. So i got 3 caps down and Siam's cap was close to be taken...until phants appeared from nowhere and destroyed my beloved keshiks. His cap went down to almost 6 hp, but i needed 5 hp left to let my single LS taking it... Ahhh dammit.

Greece 's cap was taken by Siam, letting me only Askia's cap to go and Russia's one after Siam. Was about to get rifles around turn 173, for a massive upgrade/rush buys for the last part(a third army was waiting in home land to get Russia and another army on the other continent was waiting too). I was hoping for a sub 190 turns finish, maybe even sub 180.

I built a lot of units. I lose some as well. I opted for quantity, and it worked well(5 cities constantly pumping units, had 22 keshiks walking on the map at same time somewhere), but i got no luck and mismanagement against Siam. I should have thrown more reenforcements when needed, or kill more phants before taking city.

Now my army is killed by Siam and i don't want to rebuild everything(Monty is blocking the way again too). I lost my will to fight, sorry but no report for this one. My time will be far that i wanted if i continue.

 

[FlowKey]

I believe I stumbled upon something you could call an exploit in this particular game. When I met Monty and discovered he had already sealed off the rest of the continent, I wanted to wipe him off the map but I didn't have the units nor the tech yet to plough through his jaguars. While waiting for this, I sealed Monty off with one scout at the bottleneck north of the mountains.

Things then went sour on my end: the essential wonders were finished while I was building them which led to me putting off the Aztec war again and again. Scouts by then were replaced by archer and warrior. Then Monty DoWed me, but he simply couldn't handle the bottleneck situation. In fact not a single shot was fired for ten turns, when he started offering peace at a ludicrous price. As soon as I got a few chariot archers over there and started killing his jaguars, he offered me clean peace.

In the next Monty war, he tried to get his troops to me over sea where I could shoot them like fish in a barrel. Clean peace again.

Third war ended even more bizarre: after something like three turns of 'fighting', he offered me peace plus 60g!

What's up with all that?!

Anyway, like I said, I got into enough trouble on my own with missed wonders which meant I passed turn 150 before I got to the keshiks and abandoned this game.

 

[FlowKey]

EDIT: I may replay this with a REAL slingshot at GL btw; first time around, I felt I had to get archery and mining before writing ...

 

[JustAnother]

I believe I stumbled upon something you could call an exploit in this particular game. When I met Monty and discovered he had already sealed off the rest of the continent, I wanted to wipe him off the map but I didn't have the units nor the tech yet to plough through his jaguars. While waiting for this, I sealed Monty off with one scout at the bottleneck north of the mountains.

Things then went sour on my end: the essential wonders were finished while I was building them which led to me putting off the Aztec war again and again. Scouts by then were replaced by archer and warrior. Then Monty DoWed me, but he simply couldn't handle the bottleneck situation. In fact not a single shot was fired for ten turns, when he started offering peace at a ludicrous price. As soon as I got a few chariot archers over there and started killing his jaguars, he offered me clean peace.

In the next Monty war, he tried to get his troops to me over sea where I could shoot them like fish in a barrel. Clean peace again.

Third war ended even more bizarre: after something like three turns of 'fighting', he offered me peace plus 60g!

What's up with all that?!

Anyway, like I said, I got into enough trouble on my own with missed wonders which meant I passed turn 150 before I got to the keshiks and abandoned this game.

Actually you don't need any wonders for this map as domination victory. They are just a bonus if you can get any. Rushing to Keshiks is the key here. You can kill off most of AI with them and a few horseman/melee and beeline to rifleman. Once they are out , you can finish off the remaining AI with rifleman and keshiks.

There is an exploit you can do on this map though...you can effectively block off monte 2nd city and delay his 2nd city for a very very long time.

 

[JustAnother]

After like 7 sessions, I'm still fighting with this one. Almost constant war since Monty DOW'd on me around turn 50. Had a lenghty war with him first with chariot archers and warriors, but only managed to capture his first city after I got Keshiks via liberty finisher GS and upgrading my chariots. Even then it wasn't easy as the terrain is tough. What made it even harder was the fact that he had the Great Wall and spammed only pikemen. But when I capture the first city, taking the second one wasn't that hard. Just as I was about to finish him my taking his 3rd and final city, Siam DOW'd, so I got a peace treaty with Monty and step by step captured quite a few of Siam's cities.

Currently at 1888AD Monty is still alive with 2 cities, one cutting my empire in half, but I don't mind. I think there is a strange bug going on, as Monty has about 25 pikemen scattered all over the place and even embarked near his cities. He has had -35 GPT for almost the whole game, and he has done practically nothing. Only recently he just DOW'd Siam. I had peace with Siam for a while, but as he was still tech leader and otherwise pretty strong after I'd taken some of his cities, he had a strong army at my border, preventing me from continuing my conquest. During the game other AI's had beaten some of my competition, so only Russia and Songhai remain in possession of their capitals.

My invasion army consisting of Mech inf, artillery, battle ships, carriers with fighters and most importantly hugely experienced Keshiks (!) has started moving towards Catherine, who DOW'd me after I DOW'd Siam, even when they were at war with each other and I had really friendly relations with Cathy. I had prepared to invade Cathy earlier by capturing Stockholm, so I had had a nice beachhead close to Moscow to start the invasion from, but Cathy took it from me as I had no proper defences there. The Keshiks are awesome, even when I have lost a Keshik from time to time, one of them is close to reaching level 10. Warfare is really slow with them, as micromanagement (with road building) is really important with them, but they can seriously hurt even mech infantry without even being damaged themselves! This type of warfare has lead to a situation where I'm not taking full advantage of the Khans, but that's a sacrifice I've had to live with.

I'm usually not a warmongerer, so this game has been a learning experience, and I think I should be able to reach domination victory at a late date. Still can't understand these players who reach it even before 1800AD, especially with some AI's on different continents.

You polly played with your keshiks wrongly. They shouldn't be getting hit by anything at all with their movement speed even with the great wall. Always retreat them out of anyone melee atk if possible and with gg's healing....they are almost invincible until AI mass knights+. The key to finishing a fast domination is to send your main army to the other continent as early as possible without first finishing your own continent. You get fresh units out for your own continent conquest. Also you only need to aim for capitals.