tulkas12: Continuation from other Forum

[drkodos]

Sir: I have studied extensive the Bible, the Quran, and far too many eastern tomes to list here. I am currently reading a lot of Taoist literature. My opinion of the non-existence of a god or gods is based on personal experience and learning and talking to people in over 40 countries about it.

I have walked in religious shoes and found them too tight and uncomfortable.



I am raising my children to be open minded, and free to choose their own paths. I doubt your parents did that for you. Most religious people were indoctrinated at an early age and given no choices.


I find that despicable. It was done to me, but I broke from it when I read more manuscripts and opened my mind to reality. The Bible? That is just one version. One story.

The Lord of the Rings makes more sense to me these days and I find it has decent philosophies in it.


So: do you think your choosen religion is the correct one? Eh? All the others must be wrong, then, huh? That alone is a conundrum that convinces me all religions are off base 100 percent and TOOLS that are used by people.

They are needed though. Or, they were. They are now rather obsolete and do more harm than good to the world and its inhabitants.


How many times can religion keep being 100 percent wrong about life on this planet and have people still buy into it?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Look, here's a thread about religion in OT! How interesting!

No, seriously, to throw in my 4 ha'pennies, I don't quite get your claim that religion is "100% wrong about life on this planet". Some people happened to think that a mythic and poetic version of the creation of the earth was supposed to be fact, in the absence of other evidence, but most people have learned to accept evidence. Remeber, "Religion" =/= "Fundamentalist Christianity", but I see them made out as the same thing all the time. And sociologically speaking, a lot of times religion understands human nature very well.

I also see nothing unusual about thinking that one's religion is true and that therefore, as it logically follows, that all others are wrong insofar as they differ from one's one. People do that with other viewpoints, such as politics, all the time, but no one ever makes a big deal about it.

 

[drkodos]

No. I encourage you to refrain from the habit of taking things out of context. History, as drkodos points out, is complex. Really, really complex. To find out what religions are really like we look at what defines them. Islam: The Koran and Allah's prophet. Christiananity: The Bible and Jesus. If you take them, study the texts and find out what each was like you can figure out which religion is one of peace and which one is the one of war.

And now to Drkodos:



I have also thought it out. I don't think I'm the only one on this planet or in these forums who have spent a huge amount of time reading, studying, listening and keeping an open mind trying to figure out... well.. Life, the universe and everything. Of course, that's impossible but I can try to figure out why I'm here and what to do about it. I also realized something. The fact that there should be a God. Next I wanted to know what his name was. I took many religions and put them side by side. Out of the many I studied I came to the conclusion that the God of the Bible is not only the sole major religion that isn't flawed in some way but there is nothing which kills the fact that the Bible is historically sound. It is only scientific what I did. I tested and tried every option until one worked.




Is your beliefs okay with me? Not really. If you look at it from my view you will find I firmly think you are lost and need the Life.



Controlled? It what sense? If you mean controlled as in doing somebody elses will then yeah. Heck yeah, I hope I'm controlled by Jesus But if you mean trapped and stuck and jammed into a postion where I can't see freedom (and I think that's your view) then, one human to another, I know what it's like to be controlled like that. And this ain't it. Indoctrinated and unable to step outside the non-intellect package you were programmed with? What? Are you saying I was born programmed with the need for Jesus? I hope so because you got that right. Each of us has a void that can only be filled by the One True God. As for 'non-intellect package'? Can you please expand on that? I don't quite understand your point here.






You feel sorry because I can't accept your reasoning that there is nothing more to life? Trust me mate, times that feeling by ten and you get what I'm feeling towards you. It's your soul at stake. Hell or Heaven. You know the stuff.





Appreciated.


Why?




No, not really. Your arguments so far haven't changed me yet. I've come across much bigger rocks then what you have thrown at me



How does it make life more precious? And I'm hardly afraid of the truth. As I have already said, I seek it.




Are you pulling another obsolete argument out of spite? Search the net for the answer to that one, mate.

@Mods: If this is getting too OT, don't worry. I will answer any other questions via PM

Life is more precious because it ends.

If one believes in an afterlife, there is another chance. For many things. You can screw up an entire lifetime on this planet, but make an atonement at the end and then be rewarded with perpetual and eternal happiness? Please. That is so insipidly insulting to any one with a real level of though and intelligence. Only an indoctrinated, or fearful fool, could possible believe something so patently unjust.

Apply some logic. If people realize this is it, they MIGHT be more inclined to make a better life right here, right now, sir. Religious zealots can never seem to fathom this.



The whole Christian schema is bothersome: A lifetime of evil can be atoned in the end and a life of eternal bliss awiats those that accept God? Gimme a break. Nothing could be more selfish and humancentric.


There is no rockc limbing in heaven. What would be the point? Extreme sports. Do they exist in heaven? Nope. And on that pillar alone of intellectual thought, heaven is proven to be impossible to exist.

I am sorry you have not the abilities to see what I see. I really do feel bad for all the myopes that cannot, or will not see. Actually, no I do not. I just feel frustrated that they are such ignoramouses and try to dictate to so many others how we should live.

I just wish any of you religious types could consciously experience the moment when you realize you have been wrong. Would you come back and apologize to those of us that have been correct?

I doubt it. I doubt it very much indeed.

 

[drkodos]

If I am wrong, I fully promise to come back in some form (ghost, spirit, angel, demon or perhaps a even lampshade) and let people know and apologize for being wrong.

Because, if I am wrong, then I am going somewhere like limbo or hell or some other level of existence. And since there are so many others that have come back in some form, like Della Reese did on that CBS show, then I will do likewise.

I promise.

 

[Stylesjl]

When it comes to my atheism the only leg i really have to stand on is the lack of evidence of god or the things accoisated with god. Everyday i see people blindly beleive in this stuff and i just wonder: Why?

I mean sure heavean, salvation, and all that stuff sounds nice but i really can't go on beleiving something even if it sounds good

 

[trada]

Life is more precious because it ends.

It's still as precious with an afterlife. If fact, more because it means sooo much more!

If one believes in an afterlife, there is another chance. For many things. You can screw up an entire lifetime on this planet, but make an atonement at the end and then be rewarded with perpetual and eternal happiness? Please. That is so insipidly insulting to any one with a real level of though and intelligence. Only an indoctrinated, or fearful fool, could possible believe something so patently unjust.

Whoa. Now I see were you are clearer. Let's disect this should we?
First of all: God judges by faith and not by works. If you screw up an entire lifetime on this planet but accept Jesus into your heart at the end.. You are no different to somebody who had Jesus since a child and lived a godly life. It's the faith that's the point.. not the works. So why do some see this as dumb and insulting? Because humans don't like things working that way. We judge with a pair of scales.. good things versus the bad. God, on the other hand, judges by your heart. If you know Jesus.. then you are His forever. Even if it's just at the end of your life. But that doesn't mean everybody should just live their lives in sin only to turn and 'save themselves' at the last minute. No. If you think like that then you are not truely wanting truth and Jesus. Jesus wants those who will give their lives to him.

And yes, I guess this is 'patently unjust' according to the world.

Apply some logic. If people realize this is it, they MIGHT be more inclined to make a better life right here, right now, sir. Religious zealots can never seem to fathom this.

I think you are making a common mistake. 'Religious zealots' believe this is it. This is our life. Our only life. We only get one. Life. Just one. This is it.
You see, us religious folk are living every moment the best we can.. like it's our last. Because what we do matters so much it's really not funny. Heck, it's safe to say we 'realize this is it' more then those who reckon life is just that and it doesn't matter what you do.

The whole Christian schema is bothersome: A lifetime of evil can be atoned in the end and a life of eternal bliss awiats those that accept God? Gimme a break. Nothing could be more selfish and humancentric.

Selfish? Humancentric? Listen mate, if one gives his soul over to Jesus on his final breathe.. and I mean really does. That guy at that moment.. if he suddenly didn't die for some reason and went on to live a life. His life would be totally dedicated to God. However, if somebody 'gives their soul to Jesus' at the last minute as some 'insurance' and is only doing for himself that is selfish and humancentric.

There is no rockc limbing in heaven. What would be the point? Extreme sports. Do they exist in heaven? Nope. And on that pillar alone of intellectual thought, heaven is proven to be impossible to exist.

So you are saying because earthly pleasures are non-existant in heaven.. it is impossible to exist? What kind of intellectual pillar is that?

I am sorry you have not the abilities to see what I see. I really do feel bad for all the myopes that cannot, or will not see. Actually, no I do not. I just feel frustrated that they are such ignoramouses and try to dictate to so many others how we should live.

"Tolerance!" the world cries! Honestly, this word is something that is drawn against Christians a heck of a lot. Let me live the way I want! You have no right to tell me how to live! It's my soul so leave me alone! *sigh* Can you not see we aren't trying to oppress but rather help? I want you to close your eyes and pretend you know the secret to why we live and what to do to avoid an forever in pain. Would you not try to tell others? Would you not share this message with everybody you knew? Even if it killed your rep and such? Does you reputation matter really? No! It doesn't! What matters is getting the Word out! Why can't you open your eyes? You say I can't see what you can't see yet it is the other way around! Please, if you have something to tell me that will show me the real truth.. then tell me! My mind isn't closed. I listen to logic.

I just wish any of you religious types could consciously experience the moment when you realize you have been wrong. Would you come back and apologize to those of us that have been correct?

I doubt it. I doubt it very much indeed.

I know I'm not wrong. It's all there, clear as day. And if I was? Would I come back and apologize to you? Would I walk up to you and say: "Sorry mate, you did have the right arguments all along? My rebuttles were didn't actually point you wrong."? Would I? I guess I would if I was wrong. But the silly thing is is that I'm obviously not.

 

[otomik]

If one believes in an afterlife, there is another chance. For many things. You can screw up an entire lifetime on this planet, but make an atonement at the end and then be rewarded with perpetual and eternal happiness? Please. That is so insipidly insulting to any one with a real level of though and intelligence.

Look at the world, it's obvious something went wrong a long time ago. The best thing a human soul can achieve is to get back into the edenic pre-fall relationship with god. If someone finds that late in life, that's not a life wasted at all because that was the entire point of their life. It's not that difficult to understand and it's pretty obnoxious hearing you insult the intelligence of the world's theists and the virtue of forgiveness.

 

[Shaihulud]

Look at the world, it's obvious something went wrong a long time ago. The best thing a human soul can achieve is to get back into the edenic pre-fall relationship with god.

It is not obvious that something is wrong with the World and the best thing in my life is that i live! I will not willingly give up what i have for an idealise version of Eden, because it appears false to me, what? Give up free will! and enjoy thereafter! Something is rotten at the core of that belief.

 

[Tulkas12]

I do respect your attempts at finding your own path. I have been indoctrinated? No, considering that I practice no religion at the present time I can honestly say no. Are other religions wrong and christianity 100% right? No, prolly not, I like christianity because of its saviour. Jesus Christ is by far the best saviour in any of the readings I have done. Admittedly I have only read the bible and a good chunk of the Quran.

I once heard a theoretical physicist put a great spin on things and it rang true to me. His idea accounts for alot of your natural misgivings regarding religion. I wish I could site him but I have forgoten the guys name, I bet its enough to say that he is a theoretical physicist that believes in God, as there are not very many.

In short it goes like this. Before the big bang there was an entity. In its infinite boredom it decide to expand itself (very possibly infinitely, considering the high likelyhood of multiple dimensions). It did this so it could reflect on itself and its imaginations and machinations. It is highly indifferent to the being of the universe as it is really only a watcher. We are one form of a mirror to himself as we are capable of introspection and reason. These being a much higher form of thought it allows us to contemplate such questions and therefore look upon himself. all of the universe is God, and he is not a peaceful loving God that protects us, as much as he is a God of laws placed on himself when he chose to expand. These laws in themself are our physics and that is all that is truly written. Trust me sir, we have no idea what is really goig on around us. We are very capable of manipulation, but not very capable at all of understanding in regards to our natural world.

Now this is the short short version, and yes I know it sounds insane. I just liked the idea. I dislike athiesm, because to me its the eptiomy of arrogance. I very much do not like it when man diludes himself into thinking he can explain. . .well much of anything. I am an engineering student, so I am a lover of science. I consider science the study of this higher powers work, not the study of a solvable universe.

As for the post-mordem part of your still condescending assault? ( I do know you tried to be kinder, but I think you still failed. It is possible to make your arguments w/o talking down to people.) I tend to believe something that I came up on my own. You get what you believe. If you believe in nothing, you get nothing. If you believe in a heaven you get that. I believe that the mind is much more powerful than anyone man has still given it credit for, as a believer your mind could tthink that you deserve hell and you would get that as well, because deep down in our hearts we know who we are.

Now you might say that I am using the machinations of the mind to illude myself into an afterlife. My answer to this would be that maybe thats the whole point. Afterall every religion out there asks for blind faith at some point.
This faith is what gets you out of the blackness you seem to be so fond of, just my thoughts on the matter though.

I willl use a great quote that Civ 4 uses, as it fits perfectly here and may still illustrate another aspect you should have picked up on by now. "Nature has imprinted the idea of God in all minds" -Cicero. Maybe this is just a fluke but, why is there such consensus on the matter? I know you could give me the diatribe as to the death explanation. We all want more. I just feel that because one man thinks he's found the answers to all the great questions, that man is more misguided than the men who concede they have no real idea but believe in a faith that makes them feel good and helps them lead a good life.

My last point here is regarding whether religion is still useful. In short I do not know who you are surrounded by, but being from the southern United States, I can tell you it still is useful. You have said that religion is used as a control system, and I very much agree with the idea. The issue is whether this contriol is still nessecary. I say it is, most of us aren't smart enough to philosphize ourselves into obeying the law and being kind to one another. Despite news reports, religions keep alot of people alot kinder to each other then they'd be otherwise. Religions are still the number one charity orginizations in the world, even before our socialistic governments. So I say yes it is nessecary for religion to help man get through its childish behaviors, after all we are a very young race ina very young civilization.

I'll check back for this thread later tonight. Its sunday I got alot of stuff around the house to do. Good day.

 

[Tulkas12]

Life is more precious because it ends.

If one believes in an afterlife, there is another chance. For many things. You can screw up an entire lifetime on this planet, but make an atonement at the end and then be rewarded with perpetual and eternal happiness? Please. That is so insipidly insulting to any one with a real level of though and intelligence. Only an indoctrinated, or fearful fool, could possible believe something so patently unjust.

Apply some logic. If people realize this is it, they MIGHT be more inclined to make a better life right here, right now, sir. Religious zealots can never seem to fathom this.



The whole Christian schema is bothersome: A lifetime of evil can be atoned in the end and a life of eternal bliss awiats those that accept God? Gimme a break. Nothing could be more selfish and humancentric.


There is no rockc limbing in heaven. What would be the point? Extreme sports. Do they exist in heaven? Nope. And on that pillar alone of intellectual thought, heaven is proven to be impossible to exist.

I am sorry you have not the abilities to see what I see. I really do feel bad for all the myopes that cannot, or will not see. Actually, no I do not. I just feel frustrated that they are such ignoramouses and try to dictate to so many others how we should live.

I just wish any of you religious types could consciously experience the moment when you realize you have been wrong. Would you come back and apologize to those of us that have been correct?

I doubt it. I doubt it very much indeed.

By the way this post borders on hateful. So I'm going to be alittle bit hateful. What happened "DR."? Did someone hurt you? A christian maybe? Did he lie to you? Decieve you? .. . poor baby, I geuss maybe you should attack eveyone you see with hateful diatribes of your mind, decently endowed though it may be. Yes this will make you feel better, endless assualts on people that are just trying to live, because they are a part of something that someone that hurt you is a part of. LOL this is so Nietsche (sp?) like, I love that guy. All his hatred was still tracable and very much understandable. It gives an enlightening view when reading his works though.

Now I know you'll come back with something slightly more nasty, but I think your point of view has already been smited by your own condescendence towards any believer. I thought such an educated man would have more respect for his fellow man. I know the more educated I get the more respect I have, even with the hypocritical christian, which I know there are plenty of, so relax "Dr." and learn 2 debate, not hate.

 

[Sidhe]

He pretty much echoes my view that religions singly are too constrictive for me, I laud his wishes to be free of indoctrination, I think it does more harm than good personally to be that narrow minded. For me if I were to chose a religion it would have to give me the breadth to be me and make my own choices. The only religion I know about that has this message is Budhism and I just don't seem to have time to follow that or study it in depth.

Tulkas I'm guessing you are one of those indoctrinated people too if your that intolerant of religous freedom? Give the guy a break, we don't all have to be automatons to the great eye in the sky, some of us can break the mould.

 

[trada]

I'm sorry. I really shouldn't have gotten involved in this silly debate. Silly because it's like all the rest going sysimatically through the same arguments.

No, I am not retreating. If you have something to ask me feel free via PM and I will answer your questions. Seeya for now

 

[CaptainF]

More crappy atheist ranting! YAY!

 

[Sahkuhnder]

More crappy atheist ranting! YAY!

More intelligent agnostic logic! YAY!

 

[Sidhe]

Don't forget religous ranting we welcome all forms of ranting here, this is a liberal community

 

[drkodos]

Look at the world, it's obvious something went wrong a long time ago. The best thing a human soul can achieve is to get back into the edenic pre-fall relationship with god. If someone finds that late in life, that's not a life wasted at all because that was the entire point of their life. It's not that difficult to understand and it's pretty obnoxious hearing you insult the intelligence of the world's theists and the virtue of forgiveness.

Forgiveness? What a lie. Religions are not forgiving whatsoever. Study some real history, not just theologic history.


I am personally offended everytime I hear the words that religious people use. They offend me as much as I seem to offend them with my free use of language and behaviors.


Hate? Yes I am very hateful of religious zealots that try to change me. Leave me alone and I am willing to do likewise. But they cannot. They need to preach, like the fool above.

Hate? You better believe it, pal. I hate what religion does to the minds and the will of human beings. It is despicable and I continue my fight to free people from the shackles of their religious oppression.


Does it ever strike anyone that Strawberry jam makes God taste better? Communion wafers are rather bland, aren't they? One would think the sacrament of Christ would have a bit more flavor. I suggest they use some Schmuckers Preserves to liven those things up.

 

[Sidhe]

The wines good but if you don't like wine it may leave a sour taste in your mouth. I agree preaching at "sinners" is liable to do more harm than good, good religions let people make their own choices, bad ones seem to think you need to be saved because otherwise your burning in the pits of hell for eternity, c'mon who cares about that medevil BS? If you want to convince anyone then the message that it was a bad idea to come down from the trees use our hands to gesture, develop language and convey religion in the first place is a better idea; I bet we were happier in the trees

 

[Birdjaguar]

Hate? You better believe it, pal. I hate what religion does to the minds and the will of human beings. It is despicable and I continue my fight to free people from the shackles of their religious oppression.

"A feeling of compassionate mercy, the rest doesn't matter a damn."

Why do you let those you dispise run your life?

 

[Neomega]

There are some Christians I like, and some I don't.

There are some atheists I like, and some I don't.

There are no hypocrites I like.

 

[Tulkas12]

He pretty much echoes my view that religions singly are too constrictive for me, I laud his wishes to be free of indoctrination, I think it does more harm than good personally to be that narrow minded. For me if I were to chose a religion it would have to give me the breadth to be me and make my own choices. The only religion I know about that has this message is Budhism and I just don't seem to have time to follow that or study it in depth.

Tulkas I'm guessing you are one of those indoctrinated people too if your that intolerant of religous freedom? Give the guy a break, we don't all have to be automatons to the great eye in the sky, some of us can break the mould.

I don't think you actually read what I posted. I'm not trying to convince him of crap. It's usually hopeless to convince anyone of anything, even if you know them personally. He seemed sort of interested in what I had to say, but since he didn't seem to respond to anything but my calling out the hatred that blinds him, i geuss he wasn't interested at all.

I'm very familiar with his point of veiw, he's hardly the first thats espoused it.
"Dr."'s condescending attitude is also very typical, which is why most aetheists fail at even having a civil debate.

My bet? He's also a modern liberal who espouses peace left and right, but who I could get to punch me in under five minutes of talking. Welcome to the land of hypocrites. If you don't bow down to their way of thinking, your an idiot and should die.

Once again I practice no reigion, so how am I indoctriinated? I geuss because I listen to everyone and try to decide on my own, if my conclusions aren't the same as another's so be it. I may not be christian, but I thank the good lord (irony right?) that they are the majority in western society to this day.

I know this topic has been beaten to death, but hey whats one more go around hurt?