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[Tuning] Simple number tweaks

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Moi Magnus, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Here is a thread. I will edit this post to take in account suggestions in this thread, but I will not make suggestions by myself.
    I no longer play enough to have a clear understanding of the which number should be tweaked and how.

    Things to tweak, with suggestions, with strong consensus:
    • None
    Things to tweak, with suggestions:
    • Ceremonial burial (founder) : Buff : 20 faith / 10 culture.
    • Barbarian assault, decrease the production loss to city by ~50% (http://www.strawpoll.me/14963159)
    Things to tweak, without suggestions:
    • None
    Contested or rejected suggestions:
    • Herbalist buff from niche to universal.
    (Current beta version : 1-26)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think Carthage should get less gold on founding. I propose 100 instead of 175

    Forests should provide fewer hammers when settled on. I propose 10 instead of current 37
    For jungle I propose 5

    Zeaolotry is really good, now that gold purchased units have less XP. I propose it loses those strategic resources.

    CS bonuses (when being met) are too high. I propose we remove the possiblity of gaining 36 influence. The other options can remain as is. Siam should not be changed.
     
  3. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    While we're on the topic of small number tweaks, can we lower the production stolen when barbarians attack one of your cities? When they steal gold it's only like 1-4 gold (essentially nothing) and when they steal science/culture it's usually like 2-6 (again, maybe a turn or two's worth of these yields), but when they take production it's usually in the range of 6-10, which is a devastating amount early in the game (setting back whatever you were building 3-6 turns on Epic). Could the barbarian attacks be capped so that they can steal no more than 4 science/culture/production (scaling with era) per attack?
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    As far as I know civs are locked -- but for the record, cutting Carthage's founding gold by almost half implies that it is OP, which it demonstrably is not. It's a top civ (just like all the other top civs). Unless we are going to do yet another round of adustments to bring up Siam and push down the Iroquois, etc, I'm against this.

    There are so many random factors in openings -- what sort of luxuries you have, who your neighbors are, how close they are, the quality of the land available -- that to single out chopping forests and meeting CS for nerfs (but not ruins!) makes no sense to me. I would have no problems if meeting-CS bonuses were optional, like disabling ruins.

    I don't have enough experience with Zealotry to have an opinion on it being changed.
     
    IcyAngel likes this.
  5. RAuer2

    RAuer2 Chieftain

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    I choose Zealotry more often than other Enhancers. To me, the main benefit of Zealotry is the bonus strategic resources. Depending on the map/game, this bonus can support a larger military, decrease the impact of having an empire with no (or hardly any) coal/oil, and increases the odds of reaching one or more strategic resource monopolies. I think losing that weakens the belief too much. Am I in the minority in valuing Zealotry this way?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
    IcyAngel likes this.
  6. Giza

    Giza Chieftain

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    Here's my observations :

    Ceremonial burial (founder) : Needs a little punch. I suggest 20 faith / 10 culture.

    To the Glory of God (reformation) : Bonus to GP expand is very insignificant. I would just remove it. It's already a good belief.

    Tradition : It would be nice to have a bonus for war. Faster generation of GGs (or flat GG points) would be nice. It could also be a valid choice for some warmongering/artistic civs (Japan, France).

    Great scientists : Reduce amount awarded for bulbing.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Zealotry is good, but there are other ones I use just as much if not more. I love one world one religion combined with spreader religions...it is much easier to mass convert and then the votes late game are great
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I mentioned a small tune on happiness yields, I think it’s a little too easy to maintain happy on wide right now. But I stress, just a small tune...so curious what other people think here.

    There was not much consensus on the building and policy reviews I did, so it looks like those should remain stable
     
    IcyAngel likes this.
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    It feels about right to me, but that's as subjective as your view. I wouldn't change anything at this point that isn't already earmarked for change, unless there was a lot of feedback in one direction.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree, I didn’t see anyone else jump on the happy bandwagon, so best to leave it for now
     
  11. MorphBer

    MorphBer Warlord

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    I would suggest 125 gold for carthage, still a cut by almost 30%. 100 might be too harsh
     
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  12. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Re: Carthage - I agree 175 gold is too much, especially with building investment cost no longer scaling with # of cities. 100 - 125 gold seems more than reasonable as it is still enough to invest in a single building as soon as the new city is settled. Carthage is just so, so powerful in human hands right now that I don't think a small nerf would hurt it too much.

    Siam is definitely still on the weaker side, but all I could think to suggest as a tweak would be to slightly increase the value of the starting CS influence from 35 to 40 to give a few extra turns of CS yields. Their UU is still pretty 'meh' too, but that's fine because the Wat UB is really, really good (especially with how forest/jungle yields have changed with the latest several beta patches).

    Iroquois still seem to be doing very well as the Longhouse UB just got even better in comparison to the Herbalist, and the Mohawk Warrior is still a solid UU. The Longhouse almost feels OP in comparison to the beta version of the Herbalist now, but given that their UU and UA are just "okay" it might still be fine. As a small tweak, maybe the Longhouse could be changed to "+1 production to forests, and +1 food to jungles" rather than +1 food/production to both.
     
  13. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    100 is too little; I agree with 125, perhaps 130-135.

    Yeah, too drastic again; 25 and 12, maybe?

    The opportunity cost of zealotry is huge - you're giving up on a lot of great people. I think the strategic resources should stay (they're the sole reason I pick the belief tbh).

    Agreed.

    Agree;

    unnecessary - as you said, it's kind of unsignificant and nice flavour;

    in Tradition/defensive spirit, perhaps a small buff to HP regeneration (5HP) in one's lands?;

    they don't grant that much already, if we nerf it should be very small.

    Yeah, the Circus Maximus change was a bit much; wide didn't have happiness problems for me, but maybe the AIs told a different story. Hard to nerf without reverting the change altogether, though.

    I think the food/production to tiles on the Longhouse absolutely shouldn't be touched, to keep the civ's specificity intact; perhaps remove one culture and one flat food from it?
     
  14. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Herbalist: +2 :c5food: so in the event that you do build it with no jungles and plantations, its net base yield isn't 0. (+1 :c5food: -1 :c5gold:).

    Carthage: 125 :c5gold: on settlement down from 175 :c5gold: to stem their early game power somewhat. 125 :c5gold: at least covers all possible units you would want to buy in the early game.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I would be fine trying Carthage at 125.
     
  16. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    I disagree - I think moving away from universal buildings is a very good thing. The herbalist fills a powerful niche atm.
     
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  17. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Chanceries can give too much for one building. Maybe introduce a cap of 5 Allies 10 friends or something like that.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'd settle for disabling them if ruins are disabled. I reroll a start if I get 2 culture allies its a boringly good start (I honeslty feel like I just win when this happens).

    If chopping bonuses are reduced, I'm fine with Carthage only going down to 125. We can discuss more in the Carthage thread if people wish, but I think I could win 100 games in a row as Carthage on deity (maybe I'll lose a game if I begin inland). The AI doesn't do that well because they don't abuse the settling bonus that well. I also don't think the AI knows to always rush the science for city connections

    I agree with others that the cirucs maximus change overdid things a little bit.
     
  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I think Carthage is a no-brainer for you, but you're the best player here. (China is also incomparably better in your hands than in that of the AI.) I'd guess that they would have been reduced long ago if 175g made them such a no-brainer for everyone else. Again, they're top tier -- but some civs have to be. Otherwise why not have a poll, see who comes in at the top, and auto-nerf the top 4?

    I may have misunderstood Gazebo's intent re: this thread, but... to me, knocking off 50-75g from Carthage's founding bonus is not a "simple number tweak." It's a major nerf. The AI may not use that as well as humans do, but it's still what they use best in the early game.
     
  20. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    As I said in another thread, it can't be called a niche building if it's part of a policy, because the decision to construct it is now influenced by factors beyond the building's own baseline contribution.

    Honestly I have yet to hear an argument beyond "I like it" and "don't build it". I would think we're beyond that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018

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