[Tuning] Simple number tweaks

[Gazebo]

I think Carthage is a no-brainer for you, but you're the best player here. (China is also incomparably better in your hands than in that of the AI.) I'd guess that they would have been reduced long ago if 175g made them such a no-brainer for everyone else. Again, they're top tier -- but some civs have to be. Otherwise why not have a poll, see who comes in at the top, and auto-nerf the top 4?

I may have misunderstood Gazebo's intent re: this thread, but... to me, knocking off 50-75g from Carthage's founding bonus is not a "simple number tweak." It's a major nerf. The AI may not use that as well as humans do, but it's still what they use best in the early game.

Simple != small, simple = change numbers in XML/SQL. Existing functionality, but different numbers.

G

 

[Grabbl]

As I said in another thread, it can't be called a niche building if it's part of a policy, because the decision to construct it is now influenced by factors beyond the building's own baseline contribution.

Honestly I have yet to hear an argument beyond "I like it" and "don't build it". I would think we're beyond that.

I don't see a problem with being a niche building enhanced by a policy, wonder etc. I think that was the main counterargument in the other thread also. Of course you're right that the decision to construct it then does not only depend on its "original" purpose (do I have enough jungle/plantations?), but this a priori is not a problem, just a shift in building priority.

 

[Ziad]

I don't see a problem with being a niche building enhanced by a policy, wonder etc. I think that was the main counterargument in the other thread also. Of course you're right that the decision to construct it then does not only depend on its "original" purpose (do I have enough jungle/plantations?), but this a priori is not a problem, just a shift in building priority.

A shift that doesn't shift anything at all. At no point is it worth spending that much production on a building with zero scaling ability and +1 food +1 science for -1 gold in ancient.

Seriously is there any other building as niche as Herbalist right now? Even Stone Works provides something (production trade routes) so if you build Mausoleum without a quarry you still benefit.

That's fine w/e.

I just don't like the concept of doubly-niched buildings. There is no comparable building in any era, let alone Ancient where individual yields matter far more than others.

I suggested adding 1 food because it would make the building at least somewhat useful for those who don't benefit at all from its contributions. Not enough to make you want to build it in all cities, but enough so that it isn't a complete waste for those who do.

Or are people really implying that they'd spend that much for +2 -1 on a building with no scaling potential and a non-prerequisite? Maybe it if had +1 ...say from a policy...

 

[Gazebo]

A shift that doesn't shift anything at all. At no point is it worth spending that much production on a building with zero scaling ability and +1 food +1 science for -1 gold in ancient.

Seriously is there any other building as niche as Herbalist right now? Even Stone Works provides something (production trade routes) so if you build Mausoleum without a quarry you still benefit.

That's fine w/e.

I just don't like the concept of doubly-niched buildings. There is no comparable building in any era, let alone Ancient where individual yields matter far more than others.

I suggested adding 1 food because it would make the building at least somewhat useful for those who don't benefit at all from its contributions. Not enough to make you want to build it in all cities, but enough so that it isn't a complete waste for those who do.

Or are people really implying that they'd spend that much for +2 -1 on a building with no scaling potential and a non-prerequisite? Maybe it if had +1 ...say from a policy...

Seriously, though, I get it - you don't like the Herbalist, but beating us over the head with your opinion isn't guaranteed to make us agree with you. It's just not an opinion that is shared by the rest of the community at this time.

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

The herbalist is really nice when you have plantations or jungle tiles around. I build it often, but skip it a lot more than I used to back when forests got the food buff, too.

I think its production cost might be a touch too high. and that it would made sense if it added a food or a culture to the Shrine & Temple, and would help justify the cost. Alternatively, I'd be happy if it cost the same as a monument, was simply removed and had its effects rolled into the granary, or added food to camps or camp resources.

It's not a high priority fix in my mind, though. I don't really have any high priority fixes in my mind. The game is in such a good place right now that I look at any proposed change with deep suspicion.

 

[Ziad]

Seriously, though, I get it - you don't like the Herbalist, but beating us over the head with your opinion isn't guaranteed to make us agree with you. It's just not an opinion that is shared by the rest of the community at this time.

G

Only a couple of players have engaged in this discussion though, and in this case they engaged me.

Regardless, I'm not crusading for it. My concerns were for the mod, not myself.

 

[Deadstarre]

While we're on the topic of small number tweaks, can we lower the production stolen when barbarians attack one of your cities? When they steal gold it's only like 1-4 gold (essentially nothing) and when they steal science/culture it's usually like 2-6 (again, maybe a turn or two's worth of these yields), but when they take production it's usually in the range of 6-10, which is a devastating amount early in the game (setting back whatever you were building 3-6 turns on Epic). Could the barbarian attacks be capped so that they can steal no more than 4 science/culture/production (scaling with era) per attack?

1, 2, 3, 4... how many people need to like an uncontested opinion for it to make it into OPs post?

 

[Moi Magnus]

1, 2, 3, 4... how many people need to like an uncontested opinion for it to make it into OPs post?

Just "one more than before", to remember me that I had forgotten it.

 

[Stalker0]

Just "one more than before", to remember me that I had forgotten it.

I think we also need to be very careful about what is put in this thread. I would argue several of the changes in the last patch were pretty contested and still made the cut, so we need to really showcase when a topic has strong consensus, and when it does not

 

[Stalker0]

oh for the barb change. Had a recent game where barbs were attacking my one city while I desperately tried to make a unit to fight. I was losing more hammers than I make, and eventually had to quit.

So wouldn’t mind a reducing in hammer steals from barbs agreed it’s a good bit stronger than the other steals at this point

 

[Txurce]

oh for the barb change. Had a recent game where barbs were attacking my one city while I desperately tried to make a unit to fight. I was losing more hammers than I make, and eventually had to quit.

So wouldn’t mind a reducing in hammer steals from barbs agreed it’s a good bit stronger than the other steals at this point

My current game I was swarmed on t15, and immediately flashed on deadstarre's image.

 

[Stalker0]

My current game I was swarmed on t15, and immediately flashed on deadstarre's image.

Hehe yeah had a similar. I had just finished my shrine I think when I get hit. Ive gotten plenty of barb pressure before but it was the first time it had ever been that crazy. But that was the one time I had seen it, not enough to say barbs are too bad early or anything.

 

[Txurce]

Yes, I will wait for other confirmation, or two more games of the same thing happening.

 

[tu_79]

Not in my case. Islands map, territory got covered almost immediately.

 

[Deadstarre]

Yes, I will wait for other confirmation, or two more games of the same thing happening.

some of my first times trying Spain, im curious if theres any reason to play Ethiopia at all anymore but because of her start bias I kept getting coastal starts, and i think thats a big part of the difference in barbs im seeing because they just swim in to you. in my image 3 out of those 7 barbs swam in. I never liked barb terrain walking because its always constant micro to check who has the promotion so i can anticipate what the combat rules are (he cheated! oh wait... nevermind. wellll... thats not fun), but im seeing now it can be downright unbearable due to all the barb changes that have taken place since terrain walking was implemented (raging barbs became standard, pathfinders suck v barbs, plus i stopped playing aztecs lol).

needless to say, im doing some tweaking =)

 

[Txurce]

some of my first times trying Spain, im curious if theres any reason to play Ethiopia at all anymore but because of her start bias I kept getting coastal starts, and i think thats a big part of the difference in barbs im seeing because they just swim in to you. in my image 3 out of those 7 barbs swam in. I never liked barb terrain walking because its always constant micro to check who has the promotion so i can anticipate what the combat rules are (he cheated! oh wait... nevermind. wellll... thats not fun), but im seeing now it can be downright unbearable due to all the barb changes that have taken place since terrain walking was implemented (raging barbs became standard, pathfinders suck v barbs, plus i stopped playing aztecs lol).

needless to say, im doing some tweaking =)

Good point -- some of mine swam in, too.

 

[ElliotS]

I do agree with @BiteInTheMark about the fact that Transcendence sucks. There's no way to get a good bonus going into classical era (you're lucky to found in ancient now) the bonus in medieval is okay, but the bonus after that is terrible.

With the mechanics changed, maybe reverting this to the older version (+200 national yields, scaling with era) would be a good choice. Very helpful for Celts or other civs that don't want to spread.

I think the Founder about entering new eras being the only one to scale with era makes sense.

 

[Moi Magnus]

For barbarians:
http://www.strawpoll.me/14963159

 

[Giza]

For the Herbalist, I don't mind being a niche building. However, it was a kind of indirect nerf to tradition because of the policy which gives science.

I always wondered why the science bonus in tradition gives bonuses to build buildings, which synergises poorly with the policy tree because you lack production in you secondary cities. Meanwhile, Progress gives a bonus for the birth of the citizen in the capital, which kind of synergises with Tradition. I always thought these should be reversed...

 

[Noob Fanboy]

Hello, i was playing with Japan today, and i noticed something: Order Faith Building doesn't count as a military building for Japan UA. Can we change it?