Turks?

[Karaman]

In such an environment, it is an indisputably important truth that Ottoman rule was exceedingly humane.

LOL!

please, don't be stupid, the bones of my ancesstors don't lie
Humane, LOL!

Is it humane to enter your home without being welcomed, to rape your wife and daugthers and to slaughter your big sons and take the younglings in custody, then train then to return and do the same

And you can not say anything about it, because you are not a citizen, you are the so called "gyaur" or "raya", which means that you are inferior even to a cattle!

We were forbiden to wear hats, because only a Turk could wear one! We were forbidden to wear colourful clothes! Our churches had to be build in the ground, like some dug-out! We had no representatives what so ever. Only the so called "Chorbadjii" who were collaborationist with the Turks had some priviledges, but even they were considered inferior. We had to pay blood taxes, that is give certain amount of newly born to the army. And what happens after 20 years. The son, taken away from family returns, rapes his sister and kills his parents, because they are not muslim! This is the history
of my people! Do you know what will happen if you dont cooperate or decide to revolt because you feel oppressed! The Turkish government will not interfere, but the local police will summon everybody to "go and hunt some gyaurs". It was not peace, stupid, it was SLAVERY!!!!!

And it was not the Turkey it is today! It was not even the Turkey from the first World War! They were the Ottoman tribe! They came to the Balkans
to conquer, rape and slaughter! They did it all over the world these days.
And you are talking about humanism Are you being humorous?

Milochevich is an Angel compared to Turks! He wanted to save his people from the albanian terrorists, but the West decides otherwise! You western people have never lived here. You know nothing! You know what your politicians tell you, or you read something written by someone who never lived here!. Unfortunately, that's the way it is. If you mind your business, dont interfere in Arabic and Balkan conflicts, but concentrate on helping the poor not with GUNS, but with FOOD, there would be fewer terrorists, and people will concentrate on bettering their lives, not wondering how to survive the day or whether to take the metro, the plane or the bus. Why should innocent people suffer and die because of greedy politicians and ignorant historians. NATO army (consisted mainly of young and innocent americans) conquered Afganistan and Iraq in reataliation to the WTC, what happened, more terror!!! And you call this liberation war! It is occupation, not liberation!!! You need cheaper petrol !!! As it is not cheapest in US !!!. I hate myself because my government cooperates with West governments in this! But soon this will change! Soon the West will fail !!! It will be assimilated by immigrants, by crime, by ignorance !!! It is inevitable! Well, may be our grandchildren will be witnesses, but certainly we will not even our children will not !!!.

Someone once said: There is no such thing as good war or bad peace!

I am sorry that I had to bring up the question of the Turks, what they had done and that it was good or evil! I dont want to offend any modern Turk. They are people like me, they have red blood, they want to be happy, I want
to be happy! I dont want to have any conflicts with them. But this is the
history of my people, this is my land and I will not allowed any Turk to come
and tell me what to think, how to think, even what to do and how to do it.
I am A Bugarian and I will defend my country from any terrorists, were they muslims or not! I will not allow anybody to tell me how to rule my country!
I am A Free man now and I will crush all who are trying to enslave me, whether economically, politically, or with guns!

That is why I will not tollerate ignorant remarks about the history of my people!

I am saying again: I am sorry for bringing this up! let them be, Turks in Civ! They deserve it after all. At least their politicians are not slaves!

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

slavery? that name does not suit.
The 1926 Slavery Convention described slavery as "...the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised..." from wikipedia.
In the Ottoman "devshirme" model, what you call it as "slavery", there were no ownership of the children taken. The children were taken from their parents by any means. That is not humane, I must admit it. However, the children taken were not slaves; they were not worked in sugar plantations or cotton fields. Instead, they were educated in maths, history, physics, chemistry, philosophy and Islamic fields (*). Some, after primary education, become warriors, which are known by Europeans as "Janissaries". Some others, that show talent in politics and/or economy were given high-ranked jobs, up to grand vizier position. Tell me, where on the world slaves can be a grand vizier?
Apart from the brutal method of taking children from their parents, the devshirme system has nothing to do with slavery.

Also, no one in the Ottoman Empire had representatives until 1877 when the first parliament of the Ottoman Empire established. That parliament did not last long. In the second era of Ottoman Parliament (1908-1922), Bulgaria was an independent country that did not need any representatives in the Ottoman parliament.

The Balkan history is full of suffering, it was written with blood. I can understand you want to make yourself and your people respected in terms of history, and you must understand that we want to do the same thing.

(*) In the Islamic belief, all the children are clear muslims up to puberty when they begin thinking and judging. For that reason, the children taken were automatically converted to Islam, thus educated in Islamic fields. That can be considered the only way of forced "Islamization".

 

[ahm]

LOL!

IT IS 1984-85!!! LOOK KARAMAN'S NATION:

"During the Turkish assimilation campaign of 1984-85, the DS, People's Militia, Red Berets, and the army were reported as using violence against ethnic Turks who resisted adopting Bulgarian names in place of their Turkish ones. As many as several hundred ethnic Turks may have been killed by secret police during this campaign. Additional hundreds of Turks were forcibly resettled, arrested, or imprisoned for refusing to cooperate with the assimilation measures. Bulgarian authorities blamed ethnic Turks for a bombing campaign in which thirty Bulgarians were killed in public places in 1984 and 1985. Although guilt was never established, the terrorist acts aroused ethnic feeling that supported the Bulgarization campaign...

As in other parts of Eastern Europe, the repeal of single-party rule in Bulgaria exposed the long-standing grievances of an ethnic minority. Especially in the 1980s, the Zhivkov regime had systematically persecuted the Turkish population, which at one time numbered 1.5 million and was estimated at 1.25 million in 1991. Mosques were closed, Turks were forced to Slavicize their names, education in the native language was denied, and police brutality was used to discourage resistance. The urban intelligentsia that partcipated in the 1990 reform movement pushed the post-Zhivkov governments toward restoring constitutionally guaranteed human rights to the Turks. But abrogation of Zhivkov's assimilation program soon after his fall brought massive protests by ethnic Bulgarians, even in Sofia....

The biggest wave of Turkish emigration occurred in 1989, however, when 310,000 Turks left Bulgaria as a result of the Zhivkov regime's assimilation campaign. That program, which began in 1984, forced all Turks and other Muslims in Bulgaria to adopt Bulgarian (Christian or traditional Slavic) names and renounce all Muslim customs. Bulgaria no longer recognized the Turks as a national minority, explaining that all the Muslims in Bulgaria were descended from Bulgarians who had been forced into the Islamic faith by the Ottoman Turks. The Muslims would therefore "voluntarily" take new names as part of the "rebirth process" by which they would reclaim their Bulgarian identities. During the height of the assimilation campaign, the Turkish government claimed that 1.5 million Turks resided in Bulgaria, while the Bulgarians claimed there were none. (In 1986 Amnesty International estimated that 900,000 ethnic Turks were living in Bulgaria.)

The motivation of the 1984 assimilation campaign was unclear; however, many experts believed that the disproportion between the birth rates of the Turks and the Bulgarians was a major factor. The birth rate for Turks was about 2 percent at the time of the campaign, while the Bulgarian rate was barely above zero. The upcoming 1985 census would have revealed this disparity, which could have been construed as a failure of Zhivkov government policy. On the other hand, although most Turks worked in lowprestige jobs such as agriculture and construction, they provided critical labor to many segments of the Bulgarian economy. The emigration affected the harvest season of 1989, when Bulgarians from all walks of life were recruited as agricultural laborers to replace the missing Turks. The shortage was especially acute in tobacco, one of Bulgaria's most profitable exports, and wheat.

During the name-changing phase of the campaign, Turkish towns and villages were surrounded by army units. Citizens were issued new identity cards with Bulgarian names. Failure to present a new card meant forfeiture of salary, pension payments, and bank withdrawals. Birth or marriage certificates would be issued only in Bulgarian names. Traditional Turkish costumes were banned; homes were searched and all signs of Turkish identity removed. Mosques were closed. According to estimates, 500 to 1,500 people were killed when they resisted assimilation measures, and thousands of others went to labor camps or were forcibly resettled."(www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/bulgaria1984.htm London School of Economics and Political Science, UK )


YOU DID ALL THINGS MENTIONED ABOVE 20 YEARS AGO BUT,
WE DID NOT ASSIMILED ANY RACE DURING 623 YEARS SO YOU ARE HERE AND LYING!!! IF WE KILLED YOU OR ASSIMILED UNDER OTTOMAN (TURK) GOVERMENT DURING 500 YEARS, ANY BULGARIAN OR ANY GREECE OR ANY MAKEDONIAN... WOULD NOT LIVE!!! WE WERE STRONG, WE COULD KILL BUT WE DIDNT SO YOU ARE HERE AND TALKING!!!

THINK BEFORE!!! THEN TELL!!!

Moderator Action: Calm the tone down. And please stay on topic. This post is perfectly suited to go into the history forum, and not the Civ IV Ideas and Suggestions forum.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Superkrest]

tell that to the armenians.(every nation has there blemishes..its ok..you didnt do it.) the turks do deserve a spot....but to deny certain aspects of there riegn only fuels your opponents

 

[Kyriakos]

I think that this thread is now off-topic, and some moderator should have a look at what is going on.

 

[Karaman]

I am sorry! I apologize for bringing such emotions in this great forum! ahm, I apologize! Let's play CIV, anyway! We are making history now, so we must be peaceful! I think you reminded me that!

 

[Civrules]

I think that this thread is now off-topic, and some moderator should have a look at what is going on.

And that's exactly what I said above . . . Like any Off Topic thread, if it does not improve it'll get closed.

 

[jkp1187]

Why did Constantinople get the works?

It's nobody's business but the Turks.

(couldn't resist....)

 

[Armenian Rebel]

About Genocide Lie

The only lie that I can think of are the excrements that you posted here.

Reasons Behind Relocation relocation

The decision regarding migration was taken under compulsion, in order to prevent the harmful acts of Armenians, who stabbed the Ottoman State that was their own state, in order to establish an independent Armenia. Documents confirm how the Russians and the Entente States deceived and provoked Armenians.

Under the Young Turk regim, the Armenians had agreed to cooperate with the new and 'improved' Ottoman leadership, as they promised them constitutional rights and reforms in the 'Eastern Vilayets', or Western Armenia. The Armenians even celebrated the Young Turk revolution that reduced the Sultan into a simple figure - the same Sultan that ordered the massacre of 200 000 Armenians in 1895-96.

Instead of getting their promised reforms, the Armenians were subjected to widespread massacres in Adana and the rest of Cilicia. It was known as the Adana Holocaust and claimed between 20 000 and 30 000 lives.

The Armenians who were deceived by such promises as to be given the lands they obtained during the War and that their independence to be recognized; established a number of revolutionary societies . Armenians, who started their terrorist activities before the immigration process, continued these activities even during the immigration. They collaborated with the enemy both in the border areas and in the inner regions, and applied genocidal activities to the Moslem people .

After the Young Turk Revolution, Armenian revolutionary societies stopped fighting. Armenians even entered in the Ottoman Army. Even after the Adana massacres, Armenians were convinced that the perpetrators were the Sultan's loyalists. Only some Armenians joined the revolutionary societies, such as the Dashnaktsutyoun. That is why Armenians were left mostly defenseless in front of the Turks.

How could the Armenians, a minority in the Ottoman empire, apply ''genocidal activities to the Moslem people''? They were only a minority and were barely able to defend themselves in some rare areas. It is not enough that you are denying the Genocide, you are also reversing the role of the criminal and the victim? That's like saying ''Jews commited Genocide on the Germans''!

The Definition and Purpose of Relocation (Techir) relocation

The Arabic originated word “tehcir” means “emigration / immigration”, it definitely not means “deportation” or “exile”. Hence the law commonly known as the “Tehcir Law” is the same as “Temporary Law On The Military Measures To Be Taken For Those Who Resist The Governmental Acts And Supplementation’s.” The word used to explain the implementation in line with this law is “tenkil” in the Ottoman language and means “transport- not the equivalent of “deportation”, “exile” or “proscription” in Latin originated languages.

Nobody cares about the origin of the word! The same BS material, again and again... Don't you get tired of copy-pasting like this?

The immigration, which was started with the orders of Talaat Pasha, and approved by the Government and the Parliament as a measure against the Armenian riots and massacres, which had arisen in a number of places in the Country - pre - dominantly in Van province, was only implemented only in the regions in which such riots and massacres affected the security of the fronts directly. The first area was Erzurum, Van and Bitlis Vicinities which formed the rear part of the Caucasian - Iran Front; and the second was Mersin - Iskenderun Region which formed the rear part of the Sina Front. In both of these regions, Armenians had collaborated with the enemy and involved in activities to facilitate the enemy’s invasion.

Wow. The genocide used to be called 'relocation' by your Turkish denialist websites. Now it is called 'immigration'? Amazing...

If the so-called ''immigration'' only took place in the Eastern Vilayets, or Western Armenia, where are the Armenians of Western Anatolia? There are only 50 000 Armenians left in Istanbul today.

And the self-defense of Van and other cities could be compared to the Jewish uprising in Warsaw.

Armenia Rejects Turkey’s Dialogue Callnews March 11, 2005

Armenian FM Oskanyan: “There is no need to discuss with the Turkish historians”

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Opposition Party CHP’s Ledar Deniz Baykal called Armenia and Armenians to open their archives and to make negotiations on Armenian issue. Turkish PM said on Tuesday " We have already opened our archives to those who claim there was a genocide. If they are sincere, they should also open theirs. This would allow historians to work on documents on both sides… Teams of historians from both sides should conduct studies in these archives… We do not want future generations to have a difficult life because of hatred and resentment.” However Armenian side says there is no need to discuss the Armenian allegations, because they are already proven. Armenian Foreign Minister Oskanyan said the problem is political and Armenia does not need to discuss the ‘genocide’ argument with the Turkish side. Oskanyan claimed the historians had made their all studies and they do not need make any more study. However the Turkish historians and many American and British researchers do not agree with the pro-Armenian historians. Many historians from the US and Europe including Prof. Dr. Justin McCarthy and Prof. Dr. Stanford Shaw says the 1915 events cannot be considered as ‘genocide’.

The Armenian Archives are opened, even to Turks. This article proves it.

A few months ago, a conference on the Armenian Genocide was going to take place in a prestigious Turkish university in Istanbul. Unfortunately, it did not take place, because the conference was labelled an 'act of treason' by Turkish officials.


The Armenian Genocide has been proved again... and again... and again. Around 20 Western countries have recognized the Genocide, but there isn't a single country that supports Turkish claims.

EDIT: I added a few links about the Armenian Genocide, if anyone is interested.

http://www.twentyvoices.com/
http://www.theforgotten.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide


OK, let us get back to the subject. I would laugh if the Turks were included in a game called Civilization IV! The Turks hardly achieved anything in their bloody history. They simply ''borrowed'' elements from the Middle-Eastern natives (Persians, Arabs, Anatolian Greeks, Armenians, etc.) and called it their own. They ruined the Middle-East, Anatolia, and the Balkans - ancient centers of civilization. Yes, they conquered a lot. But usually, a conquering nation imposes its' culture on the natives. In this case, it was completely the opposite.

Good luck Turks! May Allah... Tanri... whatever you want to call him... be with you!




Cheers!

Armenian Rebel

 

[Japanrocks12]

Oh Dear, I knew that it would only be a matter of time before we once again speak of genocides. The Turks have plenty of influence in Asia as nomads, conquerors, and administrators. From India to Mongolia to N. Africa they have spread their influence throughout history.

 

[Armenian Rebel]

The Turks have plenty of influence in Asia as nomads, conquerors, and administrators.

They conquered land, yes, but native cultures influenced the Turks more than the Turks influenced them. Their religion, their architecture, their food, etc are mostly foreign.

Besides, 13th century onwards, a lot of their wars were faught by janissaries (ex-christians forcefully turned into Islam).

 

[Crayton]

Turks were given high status in Yuan China. For the past 500 years, or at least between 1492 and c.1900, the European view of the religion of Islam came from the Turks.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

@Armenian Rebel
Other civs with only full of bloody history (mongols, for example) are in the game, where high-culture Turks aren't. That makes me laugh.
Janissaries, officially founded my Murad I in about 1350's, were only the royal bodyguards, they didn't fight in battles. They only did their action after the battle ends, with plunder and guarding the Sultan.

There are very few number of religions in the world. Judaism and Christianity are "invented" by Jews, Islam by Arabs, and some Asian religions by Indians and Chinese. Lots of other civs got their religions from these civs. Religion, in this case, cannot be a criteria about culture. Your religion is also foreign (assuming you're orthodox).
About architecture, you know nothing. Turks are known to be the best wood constructors (my architect friend told me that, I don't make it up). Also there are lots of architecture terms like "Turkish xxx".
You may be right about food, noone can continue their food customs of steppes in rich lands of Anatolia.

This thread will cause a war! Be careful..

 

[Kyriakos]

Also there are lots of architecture terms like "Turkish xxx".

seems like the turkish xxx industry is strong.

 

[Armenian Rebel]

There are very few number of religions in the world. Judaism and Christianity are "invented" by Jews, Islam by Arabs, and some Asian religions by Indians and Chinese. Lots of other civs got their religions from these civs. Religion, in this case, cannot be a criteria about culture. Your religion is also foreign (assuming you're orthodox).

At least my religion is a different variation of Christianity (Armenian Apostolic). Armenia was the first country to offically adopt christianity as state religion (301AD)

About architecture, you know nothing. Turks are known to be the best wood constructors (my architect friend told me that, I don't make it up). Also there are lots of architecture terms like "Turkish xxx".

I'm sure you've heard of the famous Ottoman architect Sinan. According to Ottoman Archives, he was of Armenian origin (he later adopted Islam because he became janissary).

And I'm sure you've heard of the Balian family (Hamidiye mosque, etc.)

Armenians have their own alphabet. What do Turks have? Initially it was Arabic, then it became Latin in order to make Turkey look ''European''...

I think the fact that Mongols created the largest empire in history justifies their inclusion in the game. What justifies the inclusion of the Turks?

Cheers


Armenian Rebel

 

[jkp1187]

[SATIRE]

MY culture rules, all others drool!

[/SATIRE]

 

[Himalia]

I think the fact that Mongols created the largest empire in history justifies their inclusion in the game. What justifies the inclusion of the Turks?

I pretty much agree with most of the things you have said or at least come very close to them. However that last bit is incorrect. Indeed in there day Mongolia did have the largest Empire. However the largest empire of any time period actually belongs to the British Empire. The Mongels come third on that list.

I belive that the Turks should still be in the game or at least an expansion either would do as they do hold a great historical significance. However they are guilty it would seem of being alittle selective with certain historical facts which does not help them. But then again there are many nations that should be in the game that are not 18 is simply not enough. 30 would be more like it.

For those who are intrested the Turks (Gokturk Khanate to be specific) do squeeze into that list at the number 10 spot, however the difference in size between the Gokturk Khanate and the Mongolian Empire is huge. The mongol Empire was over twice the size.

 

[Armenian Rebel]

I pretty much agree with most of the things you have said or at least come very close to them. However that last bit is incorrect. Indeed in there day Mongolia did have the largest Empire. However the largest empire of any time period actually belongs to the British Empire. The Mongels come third on that list.

My bad. As far as i know, the Mongols were the largest continuous (no colonies) empire on earth.

 

[Himalia]

As one solid continuous land mass that may well be correct. The country that came second on that list was the Soviet Union they may well still edge it over Mongolia but its very close. The Soviet Union peaked in 1945 while Mongolia peaked in 1259 which is very impressive considering how little difference there is between the two. I will agree that taking Mongolia out of the game would be a very poor choice.

 

[Invisible Rhino]

There should definitely be Turks. Too similar to Arabs? Hardly. They're completely different people for the vast majority of history. Turkey as a country has only been around for about a hundred years, Turks as a people have been around for millenia.