Turn Discussion Thread

[BLubmuz]

Sure, Comet won't have many commerce tiles. But the cities have trade routes. So libraries are more useful than theaters. See, i just say "libraries first", not "no theaters".

About research, instead of slow-research SM, won't it be better research Corporations?
It gives +1 trade route on every city. And it's required for AL (Infantry+Factories

Now, the time to break the ETT is arrived. What can we do?

I so badly want to make privateers *sigh* I know no one is going to back that idea though lol.

when Frigates come in play, privateers are not so useful. But we can consider to build some.

 

[AlphaShard]

I know about the frigates, they pretty much end Privateer's ability. But I do love their blockading/pirating ability.

Course there's other applications as well, you mentioned breaking the ETT? No one will know for sure WHO built the Privateer. Just that it was someone in ETT.

I'm just trying to think of ways to break the ETT that don't get us dogpiled, though I am begining to think it's too late. No response from Quat or CDZ, the silence is deafening.

Though I do see one shred of contentious hope in Quat's response to CDZ doing RR.

 

[Trystero]

I think it would be easy enough for other teams to figure out who built the privateers by watching CivStats log-ins and privateer movement.

 

[Alltriia]

See, i just say "libraries first", not "no theaters".

I understood. I only think that theatres would be more usefull right now. Nevermind.

About research, instead of slow-research SM, won't it be better research Corporations?

I'm for it.

Now, the time to break the ETT is arrived. What can we do?

It's a long shot, but we can always send a message to the other members starting right away with a "The time as come to end the ETTT.".
We could try to point out that:

-There's no point having the ETTT around when on the modern era frontier.
-That the ETTT never was that usefull as Amazon had to go and steal a tech(steel, was't it?) from a poor rival.
-That nobody but us(we did it too, right? ) teched with the ETTT in mind and piled gold instead of working for the ETTT efford.
-That the teching reduntancy that the ETTT was designed to avoid, happened 'constantly'( ).

So, taking into account that all the rules on the treaty woren't followed, it has not the value of the bits it was written on, "...and therefore, as we're also allowed to break a rule in the treaty, we're leaving.".

What do you guys think?

We'll get digpiled, no matter what; nobody's talking to us and we're huge on commerce and production. Let's keep building units and get the Maveriks out of the game first.
The Amazons can't attack us untill 1500AD.
Q will go next and then CDZ.

EDIT: And I can totally see Merlot allying with the Amazons.

 

[AlphaShard]

Really? They kicked up alot of because the Merlot killed one of their Scouts, Dora I remember that. I'm actually counting on Amazon fighting Merlot to the bitter end. Or being busy with them while we get ready to take on Quat.

I think once Mav fall were going to have to put units in our cities that are near Amazon, Ajen and Comet specifically.

I do agree about leaving the ETT, I did when I saw that Mer/Mav had managed to tech parity us. I think our members of ETT have performed poorly and used us as a tech mule.

 

[Alltriia]

Really? They kicked up alot of because the Merlot killed one of their Scouts, Dora I remember that.

Pffft, drama.

Or being busy with them while we get ready to take on Quat.

Yup.

I think once Mav fall were going to have to put units in our cities that are near Amazon, Ajen and Comet specifically.

And promoted to Garison so that they won't start getting ideas. Also taking more care of the west and north capes.

 

[BLubmuz]

I do agree about leaving the ETT, I did when I saw that Mer/Mav had managed to tech parity us. I think our members of ETT have performed poorly and used us as a tech mule.

It's what i'm saying since months (this phrase it's not new ). I hope you mean the times of Guilds/GP, not now. The ETT is far ahead of the "Candy Axis" now. Or am i missing something?

And promoted to Garison so that they won't start getting ideas. Also taking more care of the west and north capes.

Some can be promoted, but i usually prefere to let the units unpromoted, with the exception of naval and mounted (combat, usually).

Capes: what i said! we need more frigates to sink possible stacks of ships. And even more to cover our EIs and bombard.

No one will arrive to see our home island coasts. (if they manage it, we're toasted).

Irgy, can you please help us to go out this s**ty ETT with honor?

 

[Alltriia]

I'm starting a thread for it, BLubmuz. Hang on a bit.

With Garison promotion because for them to become effective city garrison. If a unit is fully fortified, will promoting take them out of it?

 

[AlphaShard]

Upgrading yes, promoting no.

 

[Alltriia]

Upgrading yes, promoting no.

OK.

Also new thread here.

EDIT: Is it wise to have Mizar on starvation this early? We can rush.

 

[Irgy]

Well, I agree with two things at this point:
* M&M are just about finished, and the time to end the ETTT at least in its current form is fast approaching.
* Being the current leader in most things, we're liable to be the one everyone wants to gang up on, and the current poor relationship with Amazon and complete lack of communication from CDZ and Quatronia suggest that this is a risk.

I don't see why everyone thinks it's so hard to get out of the ETTT. I think the fact that M&M are just about dead, and we have enough of a tech lead to finish them off, is all the reason we need. What's been hard about it in the past is that you had to argue with people like me who were of the opinion that ending it earlier was a bad idea. There's nothing in the treaty preventing us from leaving it, just say we're out and we're gone, no honor broken. So all this suggested busniess about pointing out to the other teams how inefficient and terrible the whole thing was is completely counterproductive. It just makes us look like arrogant pricks, who think the other teams are selfishly riding on our coattails and we hate them all. Maybe it's true, but someone explain the diplomatic benefit of pointing it out to the rest of the world?

There's just one technicality in the ASP that's a problem:

7.3. Both members agree to the terms of the Exclusive Tech-Trading Treaty (ETTT) and agree to remain members while both The ASP and The ETTT are in effect.

We need to clear this with Amazon.

So, on the whole, here's what I think we should do at this point. We still have a good 30 turns worth of not just NAP but ASP with Amazon. So, as long as we don't break the terms of it ourselves, we don't have to worry about them fighting with us.

So what's going to happen if we declare war on Quatronia in the near future? Well, Amazon are bound by the ASP to provide no assistance. CDZ, well we gave them a chance to help, I say we simply give them an ultimatum: Join in now or miss out. The worst case is they'll declare war on us. However, I'm of the opinion that we ought to be able to take both Quatronia and CDZ on ourselves at this stage. Just not the both of them and Amazon as well, if that happens we're screwed.

Amazon will be left with a choice:
1. Play mediator and sit on the sidelines while we gain a whole lot of extra territory.
2. Join us in wiping CDZ and Quatronia off the map.

If they pick #1, well, we have 30 turns to make the war a success for us before we have another team to deal with. But personally I think they'll know to go with #2.


In any case, there's a fairly important message that needs to be written to Amazon, and I'm going to work on it now that I've finished writing this.

 

[BLubmuz]

Let's forget the problems with the ETT for now, and let's go back to our war against Mavs.

Now, plans:
moved to new war thread

Research: i changed to Corporations. Yes, we gain 1 trade route per city, which is good. I propose to keep @0 for this turn, then @100 we need 3 turns to complete it.
By then (8 days, i think) we should have solved our Diplo problems, so, no danger we have to give it to the lousy ETT.

BTW, i suppose you noticed i finally have my PC up and runnig. Please let me move the units at the front.

 

[Alltriia]

I don't see why everyone thinks it's so hard to get out of the ETTT. I think the fact that M&M are just about dead, and we have enough of a tech lead to finish them off, is all the reason we need.

There is clause 2.2: "A member may be removed by unanimous consent of all other current members.".
It's not that hard to read it as having the objective to negate a member to leave by his own, but a logic interpretation does give us a green light.

There's nothing in the treaty preventing us from leaving it, just say we're out and we're gone, no honor broken. So all this suggested busniess about pointing out to the other teams how inefficient and terrible the whole thing was is completely counterproductive. It just makes us look like arrogant pricks, who think the other teams are selfishly riding on our coattails and we hate them all. Maybe it's true, but someone explain the diplomatic benefit of pointing it out to the rest of the world?

To make it clean. Now that I've read you, probably some lines can be changed but I think all the reasons are solid. We did piled gold too, for example, but there was so much slacking on teching than us.

There's just one technicality in the ASP that's a problem:

7.3. Both members agree to the terms of the Exclusive Tech-Trading Treaty (ETTT) and agree to remain members while both The ASP and The ETTT are in effect.

We need to clear this with Amazon.

Yes, and I think clause 7.5 is also relevant(the last part): "to ensure that both ASP members are not on the outside of a major tech trading alliance."

So, on the whole, here's what I think we should do at this point. We still have a good 30 turns worth of not just NAP but ASP with Amazon. So, as long as we don't break the terms of it ourselves, we don't have to worry about them fighting with us.
So what's going to happen if we declare war on Quatronia in the near future? Well, Amazon are bound by the ASP to provide no assistance.

Unless they decide to support Q openly when we declare, making them in breach of the pact clause 2.4 and out of it.

CDZ, well we gave them a chance to help, I say we simply give them an ultimatum: Join in now or miss out. The worst case is they'll declare war on us. However, I'm of the opinion that we ought to be able to take both Quatronia and CDZ on ourselves at this stage.

I'm against another chance with CDZ. Read me at the end of this post.

Just not the both of them and Amazon as well, if that happens we're screwed.

Amazon will be left with a choice:
1. Play mediator and sit on the sidelines while we gain a whole lot of extra territory.
2. Join us in wiping CDZ and Quatronia off the map.

If they pick #1, well, we have 30 turns to make the war a success for us before we have another team to deal with. But personally I think they'll know to go with #2.

1-HA! Good luck with that! Playing the benevolent king-maker won't work anymore.
2-Now, will they go for it? It's a stretch. Even more so if our suspicions come to be true.

In any case, there's a fairly important message that needs to be written to Amazon, and I'm going to work on it now that I've finished writing this.

I don't want to burden you, but if you consider to send an explanation to the ETTT, can you also check the text I've wrote on the other thread and clean it up a bit, please?

---------
I've noticed that we're slowing down our military production. Why? We should continue. There's no point in stopping or slowing just when we managed to get a couple of units on the board. If worried by maintenance, let's build some banks on the more commercial developed cities. It's poor strategy trying to build a solid army and empire infrastructure at the same time, IMO. We'll need those units sooner than later or atleast to deter Q and CDZ to declare on us.

EDIT: If Q is doing it with Mav in sight, they're shurely taking their time. In that case, we should forguet about it and invade when we are confident that we can indeed blitz the island.

 

[AlphaShard]

Slowing down? I put three frigates in que production. Not to mention I rushed a EI so now we have Five EI to use next turn to bring our forces to bear.

I did put in an Uni at one city so we can get the Oxford requirement done, other then that we still have military units in other cities.

The GM is on Anjen now, he can move to Amazon territory at any time.

 

[Alltriia]

Well, there doesn't appear to be much significance from prior turns, altho I got that feeling when checking the production column in the domestic advisor window.

175 - 6
176 - 7
177 - 8
178 - 5
179 - 6
180 - 6

Question, did we burned any GP into a Golden Age?

EDIT: Typo.

 

[BLubmuz]

Altria, not clear what your numbers represent.

In any case, we need a monastery in Bode and Alpha did well to build the last Uni required for OU.

Also, we must keep our stone when we're ready to start it.

Comments on my war plan?

 

[AlphaShard]

@Al: We didn't burn any GP into Golden Age no. We had MoM built.

I will have to check in game but I know one city is building a Mace, another a Cav and there were cannons in production as well. I think those numbers register completed builds and not things currently being built. Next turn should see a happy addition of several military units.

Also Bulb don't forget we will have five EI to use next turn not just four. See? Didn't I tell you that US will be useful?

Should we do a War Plan thread?

 

[BLubmuz]

Should we do a War Plan thread?

Yeah, US is better than slavery, with so many good tiles to work.
I think we must make an effort and close Corporations in 4 turns, then we must pile some 2.000 gold for any evenience and consider those as our zero cash.

I poen a new thread for war now, so we can focus on that. I prophezise it will became crowded.

 

[Alltriia]

Altria, not clear what your numbers represent.

Turn and number of military units being built.

@Al: We didn't burn any GP into Golden Age no. We had MoM built.

Ah, cool. It meens that we can use only one GP for another GA. We have one GS in Sirius or is it on hold for something? We could fire it up after leaving the ETTT.

I will have to check in game but I know one city is building a Mace, another a Cav and there were cannons in production as well. I think those numbers register completed builds and not things currently being built. Next turn should see a happy addition of several military units.

Those figures wore taken from the domestic advisery window, production column(only military units).
Don't worry, I just got the impression we wore slowing down.

EDIT: I just remembered something. What if Amazon is building culture right off the bat in the new cities in Comet?

 

[AlphaShard]

They are probably building culture or their own theaters at least.

Also checked in game and Quat are producing Cannons now, as well as Spiral Minuret. Oh they've been building them since before 1190 AD, please check turn tracker thread.

Wanna cancel stone?