Turn Discussion Thread

[Irgy]

I don't see much whipping in the plan for a while yet. The capital has 6 tiles it wants to work (2xfish 2xgold 2xscientist), Canopus has two fish, a gold, and either some plains hill mines or flood plains cottages. It will grow past its happy cap at some point (particularly with the flood plains), but not for a while yet.

Basically, given that we've gone for this research-heavy strategy so far, it makes most sense to me if we continue all the way to Monarchy before revolting. Getting slavery sooner without losing a turn would be a good argument for going to Monarchy sooner rather than things like Math or Alphabet that I've been suggesting.

We should decide fairly soon in any case.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Also, we'll have more chance of potentially getting a religion along the way if we don't spend the turn of anarchy revolting to Slavery, especially if we're not going to use it right away.

 

[AlphaShard]

Turn 33 - 2680 BC

Update:

No Horses, Writing in 4 turns.

Buddaism Founded.

Have not moved the WB yet.

We are kicking butt with the GNP still ahead of the Rival best by 12 points. Were behind on MFG and Population but we have the land area and Soilders (2nd place there).

Spoiler :

I bet the Leader city in the Top 5 cities is the one that just got Buddaism. I'm actually going to hedge that it's Carthage since their score changed as well as ours last turn.

Spoiler :

As you can see no horses so we REALLY need to explore every square inch to find those strategic resources. May even want to prioritize IW eventually.

Spoiler :

Want to reiterate that I haven't moved the boat, just going to let Parkin or someone else do that.

If we are doing a Religous Tech after Writing, we should probably go Polytheism since someone just got Mediatation, my bet is on Carthage. How embarrising for the Two Religous Civs who actually start with Mystiscism. I have a feeling though we may not get Hindiuism either. Oh well.

 

[Irgy]

Re Workboat:
Surely we can move the workboat? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Azzaman is arguing about the workboat direction to try and make a point that he was right in the first place about which direction we should have moved it. Surely he's not seriously suggesting turning it around now? He said himself he hates wasted moves, which is why he wanted to go the other way in the first place. If one move wasted to turn north is bad then surely 4 moves wasted backtracking now is even worse. At this point by the time it might be a good idea to turn around the next exploring ship will be closer anyway, so lets just keep it moving.

That said, good on you Alphashard for applying caution rather than just moving it.

Re Ligion:
Buddhism has gone, I'm not surprised at all. It must have gone to Carthage, because only two scores went up and the other one was ours (from Animal Husbandry). Personally I would be putting to bed any plans of getting either an early religeon or the Oracle at this stage. We've got very little chance at Hindu, especially with our intention of getting writing first (which I would still recommend). Monotheism isn't worth the detour through Masonry. The Oracle will go very soon I expect.

If we're not going for a religion nor the oracle, then that's a plus for revolting to slavery soon (although I still don't think we should), a plus for getting sailing next, and a plus for running 0% research for more turns as well.

 

[champinoman]

Re Workboat:
Surely we can move the workboat? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Azzaman is arguing about the workboat direction to try and make a point that he was right in the first place about which direction we should have moved it. Surely he's not seriously suggesting turning it around now? He said himself he hates wasted moves, which is why he wanted to go the other way in the first place. If one move wasted to turn north is bad then surely 4 moves wasted backtracking now is even worse. At this point by the time it might be a good idea to turn around the next exploring ship will be closer anyway, so lets just keep it moving.

That said, good on you Alphashard for applying caution rather than just moving it.

Yeah your right. I believe Azzaman had no issues with the current direction until it was going to cost us a turn. And because that turn went so slowly we were just bickering on the issue. I think its 99% the WB is heading north this turn.

Re Ligion:
Buddhism has gone, I'm not surprised at all. It must have gone to Carthage, because only two scores went up and the other one was ours (from Animal Husbandry). Personally I would be putting to bed any plans of getting either an early religeon or the Oracle at this stage. We've got very little chance at Hindu, especially with our intention of getting writing first (which I would still recommend). Monotheism isn't worth the detour through Masonry. The Oracle will go very soon I expect.

If we're not going for a religion nor the oracle, then that's a plus for revolting to slavery soon (although I still don't think we should), a plus for getting sailing next, and a plus for running 0% research for more turns as well.

Someone needs to do the math on how useful the whipping will be before monarchy. If it turns out we are only going to whip once or possibly twice then maybe we should hold off until revolting to HR as well. It all needs to be tested in test games if people have time. (Im off on holiday in a few days so have no time to play )

Sailing is also important now that we have seen this big landmass. Deficit research would be beneficial in long run too with our current GPT

 

[azzaman333]

Re Workboat:
Surely we can move the workboat? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Azzaman is arguing about the workboat direction to try and make a point that he was right in the first place about which direction we should have moved it. Surely he's not seriously suggesting turning it around now? He said himself he hates wasted moves, which is why he wanted to go the other way in the first place. If one move wasted to turn north is bad then surely 4 moves wasted backtracking now is even worse. At this point by the time it might be a good idea to turn around the next exploring ship will be closer anyway, so lets just keep it moving.

That said, good on you Alphashard for applying caution rather than just moving it.

That is correct. I'm fine with it continuing north, I just wanted to argue.

Re Ligion:
Buddhism has gone, I'm not surprised at all. It must have gone to Carthage, because only two scores went up and the other one was ours (from Animal Husbandry). Personally I would be putting to bed any plans of getting either an early religeon or the Oracle at this stage. We've got very little chance at Hindu, especially with our intention of getting writing first (which I would still recommend). Monotheism isn't worth the detour through Masonry. The Oracle will go very soon I expect.

If we're not going for a religion nor the oracle, then that's a plus for revolting to slavery soon (although I still don't think we should), a plus for getting sailing next, and a plus for running 0% research for more turns as well.

I pretty much agree here. Writing and Sailing will come next, and we should get ourselves some gold while we build the library. I still feel that Monarchy will be the best research choice post-Sailing though. The extra hammers from chopping aren't worth as much as the extra population.

 

[Trystero]

Re Ligion:
Buddhism has gone, I'm not surprised at all. It must have gone to Carthage, because only two scores went up and the other one was ours (from Animal Husbandry). Personally I would be putting to bed any plans of getting either an early religeon or the Oracle at this stage. We've got very little chance at Hindu, especially with our intention of getting writing first (which I would still recommend). Monotheism isn't worth the detour through Masonry. The Oracle will go very soon I expect.

If we're not going for a religion nor the oracle, then that's a plus for revolting to slavery soon (although I still don't think we should), a plus for getting sailing next, and a plus for running 0% research for more turns as well.

Someone needs to do the math on how useful the whipping will be before monarchy. If it turns out we are only going to whip once or possibly twice then maybe we should hold off until revolting to HR as well. It all needs to be tested in test games if people have time. (Im off on holiday in a few days so have no time to play )

Sailing is also important now that we have seen this big landmass. Deficit research would be beneficial in long run too with our current GPT

I agree that The Oracle is out of reach at this point. But, recall that it was a possible "fringe benefit" of a Monarchy beeline, not it's major aim. I still think Monarchy should be our aim after Sailing.

I think this is the latest version of the micro plan I ran in test games last week:

Spoiler :

33:
* Animal Handling research complete. Set research to Writing.
* Lord Parkin chop complete.
34: Lord Parkin completes already begun road 1W of Sirius
35:
* Lord Parkin moves S (2) to grassland forest.
* Settler complete. Move settler to city site 'C', taking advantage of the road.
* Sirius builds warrior
36:
* Set Lord Parkin to chop
* REVOLT to Slavery
37: No Action
38:
* Writing complete. Set research to Mysticism
* Switch build to Library.
* Warrior complete. Garrisons Sirius
* Found Canopus at city site 'C'.
* Canopus works a Flood Plain and builds a WB
* Lord Parkin's chop complete.
39: Lord Parkin moves to Canopus Gold Hill (3 turns)
40: No Action
41:
*Library complete, start WB
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
42: Lord Parkin mines Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus.
43:
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2, work both Flood Plains.
*Meditation complete, start Sailing
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Warrior
*Gold mine done in Canopus and connected by river. Canopus works FP + Gold
46:Lord Parkin moves 1N to chop.
47:
*Finish Sailing, Start Priesthood.
*Warrior done in Sirius, start Galley.
*WB done in Canopus, start Worker. WB moves to Fish.
*Lord Parkin starts chop.
48: WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working Fish + Gold.
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Chop done. Lord Parkin free to move
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51: Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist + Silk.
52:
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler (done in 9 turns).
*Worker done in Canopus, start WB.
(Monarchy will be done on turn 56)

Notes:

*This includes the early revolt to Slavery. If we wait for HR, we save that turn of research.
*It does not include any binary research. The research slider drops to 90% when we found Canopus. If we aren't going for an early religion or The Oracle, I favor using binary research and dropping the slider to 0% between finishing Writing and building a Library as Irgy suggested earlier.
*In this plan we prioritize building a Warrior and a 2nd exploring WB before starting a galley. We use that time to research Mysticism and Meditation before Sailing.

If we want to research Sailing immediately after Writing we should rethink the builds in Sirius. (I won't have time to run more test games until after Monday.) There isn't too much point in putting Meditation before Sailing, since Buddhism is gone. And I agree we should forget about the early religions, but Mysticism > Meditation is still the shortest path to Monarchy.

 

[AlphaShard]

WB move update:

Spoiler :

Just wanted to make sure we had a consensus and didn't upset anyone. We have more clam and the desert land turns east.

 

[pindicator]

Yay for a potential junk city Or maybe that's our nearest source of iron.
Anyway, I don't see any whipping in the micro plan either -- since it's been shown we don't plan on whipping before getting to Monarchy, I am in favor of waiting on the civic swap

 

[Trystero]

I just noticed we haven't ended our turn yet. Do we have another decision pending for this turn?

 

[dima42]

I, too, am in favor of not revolting to slavery until HR.

 

[grant2004]

Turn just rolled over, I watched it to see if Merlot was going to hit enter at all this turn. They didn't. I'm going to post a question in the main forum asking if everything is ok over there, they probably just forgot to hit enter or something.

Anyway I moved the WB 2 tiles north, not much to report, we're at the corner of the desert area now so next turn we'll be able to see if this continues or if we're stuck going further north. I didn't do the worker move because I wasn't sure on it, I think we're finishing the road one west of the capital, but I wanted to double check on that. So that needs to be finished, and enter needs to be hit. Sorry I can't post a screen shot of the WB move, my computer is being a pain and doesn't want to let me do that.

 

[Trystero]

Yes, the plan called for moving the Worker 1E and finishing the road 1W of Sirius (current plan is listed here). I did so and ended the turn:

Turn 34 - 2640 BC

grant2004 and I played this turn. WB moved 2N, and can move 1NE (and then 1NE again if possible, or 1E) next turn.

Spoiler :

The worker (Lord Parkin) moved 1E and finished the road 1W of Sirius. Next turn he moves 1S to prepare to chop for the Library.

Spoiler :

Sirius finishes the Settler next turn who moves to the Canopus site via the newly constructed road. The next build in Sirius is a Warrior.

 

[Irgy]

So can I confirm we have consensus on the following:
* Tech path: Writing -> Sailing -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Monarchy
* No revolt to slavery until we also get hereditary rule

That seems to be what people are converging to, but if you disagree then speak now or forever hold your piece.

I'd also like to suggest two things:
* After the library, building two warriors then a galley, and then sending the warriors to explore the landmass to the east. I don't think this is all that controvertial, but someone may have another opinion. I think some test games were building another exploring workboat next. I'd prefer to get a look at the land nearby first.
* That we run 0% research for all three turns between researching writing and building the library. If the test game is correct, we will get 29 gold on each of those turns (both before and after settling Canopus oddly enough). We will be losing 2 gold per turn at 100% research after that, so this gold will last us a total of 46 turns. The benefit of course is to get the library bonus on those beakers. We'll still have sailing in time to start the galley. Monarchy will be delayed roughly 1 turn, but after that we'll be strictly ahead.

 

[azzaman333]

Basically, if we're not going to beeline Monarchy once we have Sailing, we're better off revolting to Slavery while the settler is moving. So if anyone wants a different path, now is the time to argue for it.

 

[AlphaShard]

I agree with the plan laid out in Irgy's post, I just wanted to add IW after Monarchy were going to need metals and so far we have no copper and and no horses. By the time we get to Monarchy I think we will have met some of the other Civs.

 

[azzaman333]

We may not need IW if our warriors find something on the neighbouring landmass.

 

[AlphaShard]

Were going to need Iron if we want Swordmen, Macemen and Knights.

 

[azzaman333]

Iron is unnecessary for macemen if we have copper, and Knights and Swordsmen aren't particularly powerful in their respective eras.

 

[grant2004]

The next build is a warrior? I thought we were supposed to have another workboat built for exploring in the other direction?

Also at the plan for building warriors and a galley to explore the other island, it's been suggested we build 2 warriors, then the galley. Wouldn't it be better to build one warrior, followed by the galley, and then the 2nd warrior? This way we can send that first warrior to the island a few turns earlier, while the 2nd warrior is still building.