turn0-chat-sessions

[disorganizer]

problem:
turn0(pre-turn) takes so much time from the turn-chat
proposal:
we should have a turn0-chatsession 1 day before each real turn-chat-session. in the turn0-chat, only(!) the pre-turn stuff is handled. <enter> is not pressed. the new save with pre-turn stuff is posted in the forum aditionally to the original save. the next day, the real turn-chat starts by pressing <enter>. no pre-turn stuff is done(!).
profit:
would half the real-time the turn-chat takes.
additional comments:
the player playing turn0 need not be the same who plays the rest. even the ppl attending the chat dont need to be the same.
variation:
turn0(pre-turn) is played alone by the president according to the forum. it must be finished and uploaded 24h before the turn-chat for review.

example:
when turn chat is on wednesday 24:00gmt, the coresponding turn0-chat will be on tuesday 24:00gmt.


discussion wanted.

 

[donsig]

I think this is a good idea!

I would make the following suggestions:

We must still have a turn instructions thread as this would be the 'official' set of things to be done in turn 0.

Any instructions in the above mentioned turn instructions thread that can't be implemented must be duly noted by whoever is running the turn 0 turn chat. They should be summarized in the forum along with the reasons they could not be implemented. Note that this may result in some pre-turn stuff needing to be done in the 'real' turn chat.

I am wary of locking down who plays turn 0 and when. This should be flexible. Perhaps the president can appoint someone to do the turn zero turn chat. This could either be an appointment for one citizen to do the turn 0 chats on a regular basis or the appointments could be made on a per turn chat basis. We could also use the CoC. Either way I thinnk the turn 0 turn chat (and who is playing it) should be included in the weekly turn chat schedule.

Finally, I think this could work if we stick to two 'real' turn cahts per week, though I would point out that the constitution currently calls for play at a rate of 10 turns every two days.

 

[disorganizer]

you are right. but i think this has been requested to be deleted out of the constitution by shaitan.
nevertheless, this needs to be changed to maybe "the pace at the moment is 20 game-turns per real time week, which can be extended or shortened if the circumstances call for it"
which allows us to play 5 turns in the 1st and 15 in the second turn chat of a week, if we like.

 

[disorganizer]

*bump* just wanted to have it up in the forum not to forget.
no other comments on that?
ok! shaitan, could you post a constitutional passage for cabinet-vote?

 

[Shaitan]

I like the idea of a turn 0 but having a turn 0 chat won't actually save any time. It just breaks it up into two chats. I like the idea of the DP playing turn 0 off line. As the plans and instructions for turn 0 should have been posted based on the last save it should be possible for the DP to play the turn without needing any feedback or help. If a leader passes a plan that doesn't work, the DP would have the authority to ad-lib instructions. This would also give the President position a margin of real authority and autonomy (many have noted that the President does not have much power) and ensure that Presidents who can't attend the chats (like Eyrie currently due to internet problems) can still contribute to the game.

I propose that we poll like this:
Should we have a separate turn 0?

• Yes - with a public chat.
• Yes - without a public chat.
• No

Comments?

 

[chiefpaco]

I like Shaitan's idea of off-lining the pre-turn. The player can then choose to make any assumptions about unclear directions in the turn instructions and note them. I don't like the idea of having them a full day before the chat. Many polls run late and are closely contested. Citizens also need the greatest amount of time to debate issues and cabinet members need the greatest amount of time to present them.

However, we can't have the dependency on 1 person to do it before the turn time. What happens if the player doesn't make it? What happens if they take it but don't return it? What happens if they take it but return it later? Who takes it?.... I think it could lead to greater confusion.

I think it would be easier to just have the pre-turn done at the chat time, but off-line and without interruption. We don't need to wait for everyone to come online to do the pre-turn. It can be done by anybody in the CoC. When the pre-turn is over, it can then be handed off to the highest member of the CoC.

How about this system:
At the minute the chat officially starts: Highest ranking member of CoC starts the pre-turn offline. Finishes it at the greatest speed but also at the greatest care to attend to each instruction.

At the completion of the pre-turn, the highest ranking member of the CoC takes the pre-turn save and plays on.

I see, maybe as an alternative, allowing the pre-turn to start 30 or 60 minutes before the turn, but then the following rules adhered.

 

[Cyc]

With the exception of your last paragraph, chief, that's pretty much how it works now. I like the last paragraph with either option, but the key to a sucessful turn-chat is the logging of every move. Who ever opens the save should have some one else there and it should be logged.

 

[disorganizer]

and witht the chats, errors of the player or errorous instructions and the reasons which lead to them are obvious to citizenry.
imagine the player does a mistake because there were wrong instructions in the forum at the time he played (or read the wrong info, or misunderstood something). when he saves the game to the forum and someone complains something went wrong, the player would have no evidence how this could happen.
and, the player would have to collect all information himself. no helping hand of the others. and another thing is the problem of knowing who plays.
starting the turn0 earlier does not help the problem of the turn-chat being too long for most ppl. if we split it, we could shorten it and make the chat easier for most paricipants.
another proposal would be:
if there are 2 days between turn-chats, turn0 is played in the turn-chat and the turn-chat is shortened by 5 turns.
if there are 3 days, after 2 days the turn0 is played and 1 day later the real turn-chat with 10 turns+eventually missed turns before.
so at the moment, we would play a turn0+5 turns on wednesday, then a turn0 on saturday and 15 turns on sunday.
there would always be 2 days time for pre-turn decisions, and 1 aditional day for turn0->1 changes.
but this would make things very complicated

 

[donsig]

Now actually, during the last turn chat that I played I started ahead of time and did the build queues about a half hour before the appointed time. That helped to speed the pre-turn up a bit.
There are interesting ideas about how to implement the turn 0 thing. I second Shaitan's motion for a poll. Let's do that poll and once it's decision is clear we can hammer out the details.

 

[chiefpaco]

I think it might be too tough to organize a separate pre-turn move. I know my proposal was basically about what we are doing now, but I don't see an easier way.

I'm not sure I see why it has to be logged. It should just be played out by instruction. The player reporting back to the room every move to say it was done is tedious and not new information to the citizens. I think we can assume it. Sure, mistakes can be made, but they can also be made any time.

If we allow the game to be started as soon as someone shows up at a specified time and add the ability to change players when the preturn is over, we will lose the confusion of who will play the whole game. We will also drop the wasting of time it takes for the player to relay preturn events as they happen, which we are expecting anyway.

 

[donsig]

After the chaos of tonight's turn chat I am leaning towards Chiefpaco's ideas on this issue. If we can't coordinate a turn 0 a day or two before the turn chat then we should at least let someone do the pre-turn stuff before the turn chat officially starts. We do not need logs of the pre-turn. All we need is a report of any instructions that could not be carried out so they can be addressed properly.

 

[Justus II]

I like the idea of doing the preturn 30 minutes prior to the real turnchat offline. It could be ideally the Vice-President's job, but whoever is available could do it. If we have it too much earlier (a day or so), we cut into the time the other ministers have for polling, developing turn instructions, etc. This way we would have a deadline for turn instructions, then the VP or whoever in the COC is in the Demogame at H-30 minutes takes the save game, enters all the queues, etc that are in the turn instrucitons, and then the game moves on. I don't think it would be that hard for one person, now that we have the turn chat instruction thread, to find all the needed actions and take them. If we want, someone else in the COC (whoever gets to the chat room 2nd), could look over the save game before the chat begins just for accuracy, if there is time.

 

[disorganizer]

as we saw in the last turnchat, the problem of offline-playing will be to organize it. who plays the turn0? is he really there? how do the others know he really plays? how are saves exchanged? ...
what happened last time (no accusitions, just because it fits here):
donsig played pre-turn offline. donsig also stated he would not play the turn, so chieftess started playing with loading the last save (which is EXACTLY what the constitution says). of course then the pre-turn stuff of donsig was lost.
so the problem last chat was not a rule problem, just a coordination problem. take it as an example of what could happen if offline-playing is allowed when making the rules for turn0