2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
This is the first thing I thought about too. Call me paranoid, but it smells like Ot4e's diplomacy here.
Turns 175-200
- Thread starter 2metraninja
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This is the first thing I thought about too. Call me paranoid, but it smells like Ot4e's diplomacy here.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
We should be paranoid. Look at what co-operation can do to a powerful civ like RB, why can't it happen to us?
I was thinking the same... Now CivFr has an excuse to bring their whole Army across our lands "to help fight RB" and then they will get a good view of our defenses and at the end they will have armies on both sides of us 
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I am not sure we have an OB with CivFR, do we?
After speaking with MZ, he pointed out that he have NAP with both Uciv and CivFR to t210. And by his estimation the current war with RB will be over till t190. I think it will be more like t195, but still quite a gap between it and t210. We have NAP with Uciv only to t200 though. Same with WPC. We must start thinking of grabbing some WPC land - they seem totally unworthy as allies. They even failed to cancel their happy resources deals with RB despite I asked Beta. Despite being generally good neighbors to us, they failed in really helping us or our politics every single time. They will quick become a burden to us rather than any possible help. I am deeply sorry I have to speak like this, but we must look at the bigger picture. Their land is great and is easily consolidated with our own.
We must know or guess somehow what Uciv plan for WPC. If Uciv plan to attack WPC, we turn on Uciv while they are deep in to WPC lands and we crush them. If Uciv sign NAP with WPC beyond t200, we dont extend NAP with WPC and we jump on them. This is what we must do in my opinion.
After speaking with MZ, he pointed out that he have NAP with both Uciv and CivFR to t210. And by his estimation the current war with RB will be over till t190. I think it will be more like t195, but still quite a gap between it and t210. We have NAP with Uciv only to t200 though. Same with WPC. We must start thinking of grabbing some WPC land - they seem totally unworthy as allies. They even failed to cancel their happy resources deals with RB despite I asked Beta. Despite being generally good neighbors to us, they failed in really helping us or our politics every single time. They will quick become a burden to us rather than any possible help. I am deeply sorry I have to speak like this, but we must look at the bigger picture. Their land is great and is easily consolidated with our own.
We must know or guess somehow what Uciv plan for WPC. If Uciv plan to attack WPC, we turn on Uciv while they are deep in to WPC lands and we crush them. If Uciv sign NAP with WPC beyond t200, we dont extend NAP with WPC and we jump on them. This is what we must do in my opinion.
Thanks for putting this on the table. Now we have a plan for what comes next at least. I think we must make all the plans in secret first, and only start talking to the allies once we are closer to the execution. With any luck they may have NAPs with UCiv/WPC and be unable to take spoils. Also, maybe by then we will have extended into long NAPs with them.
My thinking is that if we come out of this War as 2nd or maybe even 3rd place in score it will be easier to get our allies into long NAPs. Then we spring our invasions of UCiv/WPC. Our allies will be unable to counter. When the dust settles, the only viable Civs left will be us, Poly, CP and CivFr. Hopefully we will be able to get this to be a 2v2 or stand alone by then... but that is thinking way far into the future. For now we need to develop the plan to go after WPC and/or UCiv.
My thinking is that if we come out of this War as 2nd or maybe even 3rd place in score it will be easier to get our allies into long NAPs. Then we spring our invasions of UCiv/WPC. Our allies will be unable to counter. When the dust settles, the only viable Civs left will be us, Poly, CP and CivFr. Hopefully we will be able to get this to be a 2v2 or stand alone by then... but that is thinking way far into the future. For now we need to develop the plan to go after WPC and/or UCiv.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
If Uciv are just sitting, I doubt we will have a good shot at breaking and conquering them fast. We either need them to attack WPC, so we can get them off-guard by for example killing their main stack in WPC lands and then counter-attack, or we will need an ally to help us with attacking side by side with us. This possible ally is hard to find at this stage, because Poly have NAP with Uciv to t210, while CP have no common border with Uciv. WPC wont have any chance to make some meaningful army to help us with attacking Uciv. The only civ left is CivFR. They have border with Uciv, and they are capable of fielding good army. But can we trust CivFR enough to ask them to help us with Uciv?
No way
We must not do this. All that will happen is CivFr will tell UCiv and the two of them will come after us together.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
I kind of want us to start signing things "Director, Bank of Indira".
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Heheh... well, our allies were kind to us with giving us money so far. Now we return the money to MZ and we return the favor to Ot4e.
MZ mentioned that he might give us 1000 gold interest-free to use for some time, but now he said that this offer was only active if we gave him money 1 turn earlier so he can finish Corps earlier and now he cant make them earlier anyway. Today I reminded him about this with the hope he will rethink and give us the money. His answer was quite disturbing. He said he need to debate about this. And that he needs debate about longer future goals.
MZ mentioned that he might give us 1000 gold interest-free to use for some time, but now he said that this offer was only active if we gave him money 1 turn earlier so he can finish Corps earlier and now he cant make them earlier anyway. Today I reminded him about this with the hope he will rethink and give us the money. His answer was quite disturbing. He said he need to debate about this. And that he needs debate about longer future goals.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Strange, the game threw me out 3 times in a row. I can connect to the server and the players in it, then it starts downloading, get to "Finishing map", where hangs for like minute and then drops me back to the menu without letting me in the game.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Can it be because we are ended turn? But why is this if other nations in war with RB are still not finished turn and RB can not login to the game anyway?
YossarianLives
Deity
I logged in and took some pictures. I'll post them later, but things are looking good!
RB is down to three cities. We'll take a southern tundra city this turn and should be able to take a tundra island city next turn. We don't have visibility on their third city, but based on the zoomed out culture view, I think it is in their southwest near CP. Otherwise, they hid it on another island.
Our overall position is looking really good. Roughly speaking, it looks like our total land area is more expansive than anyone else's. We have a much better view of CivFr and UCiv lands now. Our GNP is significantly worse than the other teams, but two Great Spies should fix that. We're also working on a wonder in our capital, but I don't want to say anything in case that's a surprise that 2metra and bistrita want too share with the team. We are getting Ironworks also in one of our eastern cities. I noticed Terasvin is building a library. Did that building get sabotaged, our did we really just never build a library there?
RB is down to three cities. We'll take a southern tundra city this turn and should be able to take a tundra island city next turn. We don't have visibility on their third city, but based on the zoomed out culture view, I think it is in their southwest near CP. Otherwise, they hid it on another island.
Our overall position is looking really good. Roughly speaking, it looks like our total land area is more expansive than anyone else's. We have a much better view of CivFr and UCiv lands now. Our GNP is significantly worse than the other teams, but two Great Spies should fix that. We're also working on a wonder in our capital, but I don't want to say anything in case that's a surprise that 2metra and bistrita want too share with the team. We are getting Ironworks also in one of our eastern cities. I noticed Terasvin is building a library. Did that building get sabotaged, our did we really just never build a library there?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Did you accepted any money offers this turn?
I feel ot4e can trick us in getting more money from us than those 1500 agreed initially loan.
I feel ot4e can trick us in getting more money from us than those 1500 agreed initially loan.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I checked with Bistrita, and already know you did not gave money.
We have some strategic reasons to not actually take RB's island city off our shores. They upgraded the mace there to rifle and sent 2 more rifles transported with galleys dropped 2 tiles off the city. So we might get lucky in taking the city, but most probably we will lose it next turn or the next after the next again. We need to bring overwhelming force and we cant do this quick, as we have just 1 galley. But the real reason why we would not be in hurry to capture it is that this possibly last RB city without Buddhism prevents Ot4e from calling a vote for religious win. I did not checked and counted, but I think he and CivFR combined have the votes to vote one of them winner of the game. All the other nations have at least 1 city with Buddhism so if RB are eliminated, it will be already possible for a religious vote to be called. While there is RB with their 1 city with no Buddhism in it, religious vote can not be called. In this regard we must check and count votes. At some point we will want to take this RB city anyway - it is in our sphere of influence and it have Silver luxury resource with it. Plus, we might settle 1 more island city and have the viable option to switch to Mercantilism to deny trade routes to other nations, while pump up our own commerce and GP generation trough the free specialist each city will get from Mercantilism. But we must have a good plan what to do in case we are threatened by religious vote. We have few options available. We can produce 3 buddhist missioneres and put them in our biggest cities to wait to spread the religion in case of a vote to increase the power of our vote. We can ask MZ to prepare the same thing too. We can also switch to Buddhism to double our votes. We can also check is vassals are allowed in this game and be ready to release a small colony to make the vote void if it is called upon. It can be cancelled even after it is called and voted upon if circumstances change in the following turn before the decision is announced the next turn. it is not highly likely that Ot4e will try such cheesy win or French will happily vote for him, but such possibility exists. Like if we start war against CivFR and they see they will be eliminated anyway and decide to deny us the win by giving it to Ot4e.
Yes, this will give us the catch up we need to do. We plan to spread Judaism to one of Uciv cities which have no religion right now. This way they wont know if this is natural or it is our job. Will give us even greater bonus to stealing. The city will have our state and Holy City religion and will lack their own religion.
Beside stealing, we will pump up our own GNP in the meanwhile. PP will give us some 50+ gpt increase, the Shrine will be online in 2 turns and will give us 80 gpt, once we get to Free Speech (after Liberalism?) we will get another increase in gpt, we will switch to Universal Suffrage (thanks to our awesome Pyramids
) for a bit lower maintenance and some 30+ hammers increase and finally, we will switch to Free Religion for some time to use the 10% bonus on research, which is awesome. Plus, our cities are growing rapidly. We will get Universities and OU, this will skyrocket our science output too. We will get some more money from Uciv, we will (hopefully) get our 1650 (including interest) from Ot4e, so we will start teching for a while and then again saving money for the OU outburst. We are number 1 in all aspects beside GNP right now. We have NAP with Uciv to t240, last night we spoke with MZ about NAP to t250, which he said is reasonable, but we need to discuss it in our team, we have NAP with CivFR to t210, we have NAP to t190 with CP plus 20 turns warning in advance (needs to be clarified how he treats this + 20 turns clause) and finally, we have NAP with WPC to t200, where I think our best move will be to not extend it, but to take 2-3-4 cities from them and actually divide them with Poly and Uciv.Yes, it is the Sistine Chapel and we think we are already a bit late for it because CivFR and CP have Music for quite some time, but we are obliged to try. I wanted Sistine built like 30-40 turns ago to be able to push our borders with RB, but then we had more urgent needs with all the RB war business. Well, now it is time for it I think. What Sistine will give us is the ability to put extreme culture pressure in the tightly divided ex-RB lands. As those cities were built in 1 nation, their positioning is not like intended to be border cities and their resources are situated to be shared, instead of disputed. There are many tiles which will be disputed and us being able to output greater culture will give us easily some 10-20 tiles more, which is good, especially against CP which got way more land than us in the spoils split. Plus, it is nice to have better culture control over border tiles for defensive/offensive tactical purposes
It is a long shot (currently saying something like 36 turns), but it will be nice once it is ready. Will be production powerhouse we have for all kind of tasks - being it those powerful modern era wonders, or simply second army pumping center.
Terasvin was always more like production city, rather than commerce one. But with the discovery of Gems in one of its surrounding hills, which can be used only by Terasvin, it passed the threshold of being good as commerce center too. But the timing of our beaker output lately was not the best, so we prefered to build first the money multiplying buildings like Bank, then we built units and now we have production and time to spare for it. Also I think we must build library there anyway, because we will need to use Terasvin for 1 of the 8 Unis needed to build OU. Not 100% sure on this, but library there will be good anyway.
So yeah, things overall looks good indeed.
![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
YossarianLives
Deity
Awesome, thanks for those explanations. That's troubling to read about CP's possible religious victory. CivFr and CP together definitely have more than enough votes combined to pull it off.
Here are those pictures I promised.
Here are those pictures I promised.
Spoiler :
The way we have to deal with religious victory unfortunately, is to spread Budhism it to all our cities (or at least enough cities to make it impossible for them to get).
To call it "cheezy" and hope that CP or CivFr wont take it because we consider it "cheezy" is naieve. Of course they will take the victory any way they can get it. And I don't think religious victory is cheezy anyway TBH. It represents a victory in diplomacy, which is what these games are all about.
To call it "cheezy" and hope that CP or CivFr wont take it because we consider it "cheezy" is naieve. Of course they will take the victory any way they can get it. And I don't think religious victory is cheezy anyway TBH. It represents a victory in diplomacy, which is what these games are all about.
I also like the idea of leaving RB with their one city while we spread Budhism to nullify the religious victory option. Hopefully we can get it done before RB or anyone else figures out what we are doing.
RB is no longer any threat with two crap ice cities that we really don't want/need anyway. We should save our men and come back to finish them with Infantries later.
What is the fastest possible time we can spread Budhism to all our cities?
RB is no longer any threat with two crap ice cities that we really don't want/need anyway. We should save our men and come back to finish them with Infantries later.
What is the fastest possible time we can spread Budhism to all our cities?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
My reluctance to simply spread Buddhism around is that each city we convert gives +2 (lately +3) gpt to CP.
I understand we cant just hope French or CP dont want to use this way of win and we need a solid plan how to make this impossible and for now leaving 1 RB city alive is OK variant. But we might suffer significant War Weariness and "We earn to join our motherland" unhappiness while there is any RB alive.
We need to check with CP and Poly if signing peace with RB will be OK, as we agreed to not sign peace separately or at least not consulting. This was way back to ensure RB wont just buy one of us in to signing peace.
I understand we cant just hope French or CP dont want to use this way of win and we need a solid plan how to make this impossible and for now leaving 1 RB city alive is OK variant. But we might suffer significant War Weariness and "We earn to join our motherland" unhappiness while there is any RB alive.
We need to check with CP and Poly if signing peace with RB will be OK, as we agreed to not sign peace separately or at least not consulting. This was way back to ensure RB wont just buy one of us in to signing peace.
We cant sign peace with RB, they have to be elimminated to get rid of their culture in our cities. My point was just to keep them alive while we spread Budhism.
I understand your reluctance to give CP the free gold, but we dont have any choice, plus we can use all the religions possible in our cities, because it will make other things possible (like nasty religion CSMs), multiple Cathedrals for example later on. We can even ask CP to send us some Missionaries and make it part of our NAP with them. This may convince them that we are still buddies because we are seemingly helping them spread their religion.
Keeping RB alive for the rest of the game is not a long-term strategy. If we make peace with them, so can CP. How long do you think it will be before CP realizes that if they just get OB with that last RB city and put Budhism in it, that they can win religious victory.
The only lasting defense from religious win (and AP resolutions in General) is we have is to spread Budhism in our cities, so that we have a larger vote in the AP.
I understand your reluctance to give CP the free gold, but we dont have any choice, plus we can use all the religions possible in our cities, because it will make other things possible (like nasty religion CSMs), multiple Cathedrals for example later on. We can even ask CP to send us some Missionaries and make it part of our NAP with them. This may convince them that we are still buddies because we are seemingly helping them spread their religion.
Keeping RB alive for the rest of the game is not a long-term strategy. If we make peace with them, so can CP. How long do you think it will be before CP realizes that if they just get OB with that last RB city and put Budhism in it, that they can win religious victory.
The only lasting defense from religious win (and AP resolutions in General) is we have is to spread Budhism in our cities, so that we have a larger vote in the AP.
