2metraninja: hi guys
Ot4e: hey
MZprox: hi
2metraninja: the reason we are gathering is to discuss 2 things
one is the idea to make a map of RB lands and everyone on his own draws how he sees the future border once RB are gone to ensure fair land division
the other reason is to discuss agreement amongst us on not extending NAPs with Uciv
I will make the RB lands map tonight and send it to both of you for you to draw
so we have one and the same map and it is easier to stack it one over other
MZprox: i agree
Ot4e: about 1) I also have some in the mind. I think it is obvious, but we may have different views. So in general we support this idea.
and lets see how it will work
2metraninja: great
Изпратено в 09:57, вторник
Ot4e: about 2) I think we have the same understanding that we all need to be very cautious with UCIV and refrain from private deals with them
but I am not sure what kind of agreement do we need to get between our team
teams
Изпратено в 09:59, вторник
Ot4e: because "not extending NAP" can suppose bringing armies to their front by the end of the NAP
2metraninja: as begining to not extend NAPs with Uciv
when your NAPs expire?
or at least we extend NAPs together
Ot4e: I think it is T210
2metraninja: same here
so more than 30 turns more to end those
MZprox: we have it to t200 i believe.. doesn't really matter, I don1t expect we would get into war with them
2metraninja: yeah, you are right.. it is t210 with CivFR
Изпратено в 10:04, вторник
Ot4e: may be we should
Изпратено в 10:05, вторник
2metraninja: we should get in war with Uciv?
Ot4e: may be
Изпратено в 10:10, вторник
Ot4e: they helped RB and have created us more problems than RB could do itself
2metraninja: that is true, we must revenge on them for sure
Ot4e: for all we lose from now we need to thank UCIV specially
MZprox: it would be normal that the other civs form som,e kind of alliance against us, but i doubt they will
Ot4e: otherwise RB would be pretty sweet bag of experience
with muskets and macemans
2metraninja:
right
RB are doomed btw, they make like 250 gpt and have to repay huge debt to Uciv
we just need to keep pressure on them
they cant really teach to better troops or improve their economy much with all the whipping and drafting
Ot4e: they cant draft and slave more. We need to use this
the fact that they cant tech is not important
they dont need research to resist for long
2metraninja: yes and no
MZprox: yes, but the question is: can we kill them in this era without killing our economy too? my cities, all of them are at their limit. some needs more police units and war weariness started to be a factor
Изпратено в 10:19, вторник
Ot4e: we have to do it now imho
we have enough on our hands now
Изпратено в 10:22, вторник
MZprox: i'm not sure about the situation at the east side, but at our side we may or may not be able to take tree huggers, but after that i doubt it unfortunately. with enough catapults in open field even their maceman can kill our rifles, but they will have enough rifle/muskets. and even if heir losses would be high (mostly catapults) our invasion would be halted and we would have hard time to defend even what we have (though i don't think rb would make a counter attack.. I'm pretty sure they just want to make our job harder.. they know they canŰ't win now)
2metraninja: I would also like to win in this era
only thing is if we actually can
we are keeping pressing forward
slaving units, etc
we will slave like 15 units this turn
and then more and more
it depends on how much more units RB send our front of course, but we might need to get lucky to keep going on
a lot depends on how RB plays it out
Ot4e: they dont have chance if we do everything allright
but we need to pull them on small and even exchanges and continue threatening as much as we can
and we wont need to draft/slave much more
2metraninja: I agree we have more units than them and generally we are ahead of them
you are right that we need to keep exchanging
we hope to be able to even go bruteforce against their 20-30 rifles and survive the masacre
Изпратено в 10:33, вторник
2metraninja: MZ, you think RB already gave up on believing of them being big factor in the game anymore?
Ot4e: this is for sure
MZprox: I'm quite sure
Изпратено в 10:44, вторник
2metraninja: they still have more cities than any of us
I think
or at least as much
Ot4e: if we let them group up and "reconqista", may be they get a chance
2metraninja: after the initial phase - the first 100 turns, they did all wrong I think
they went for overexpanding with the whole Germans lands, forgetting to set their economy
MZ did the best here IMHO
he did very well his economy and just then went to war
MZprox: it was not bad move..
2metraninja: alas, we had not this chance, we were all the time dictated
MZprox: they got lucky circumstances, good early expand, good catch of wonders/religion and then an easy target
we had t o stop them and they failed to make an opposing alliance
2metraninja:
their religion was my personal fault. We postponed hindu for 2 turns to get it where we wanted
they got the best circumstances indeed. 3 of their neigbors being at war
Ot4e: I didnt mean we need to start mourning them
2metraninja: leaving much land for them to grab
oh, I am so far from mourning them
Ot4e: we till have a lot things to do
2metraninja: it is more like analisys
I am analizing ourselves too
Ot4e: good, wanted to point that they are not a problem only if we continue doing good and not stop
2metraninja: we need to get our reinforcements and we are jumping in to the breach again
the exchange deep in their territory did not ended well
it was against my idea of us moving like a steam-roller machine
we killed 6 units, but lost 12+
this time around, we move as a stack
Изпратено в 10:52, вторник
2metraninja: while discussing things, what everyone is going for in the intermediate future regarding money and techs?
MZ, ho much gpt you are going to make from Corps?
and what amount of money you need for and when you plan to get it?
same with Ot4e - what you will tech/spend money for?
I ask this, because we want to get PP, which will give us ~50 gpt
and I am looking forif it is possible to make things best way for all of us
Ot4e: we also need PP
MZprox: i wana get corporation, i can get it in 5 turns or even in 3 if fully funded. I estimate it would give me 60-70 gpt
2metraninja: I cant say exactly how much we need for PP now though
well, Corps is good then
ot4e, how much cottages you do have?
I mean which will be affected by PP
Ot4e: not much, we are all in farms for the war, does it mean that we get the lowest priority now?
Изпратено в 10:57, вторник
2metraninja: it makes most sense I think
to push for whatever gives our alliance the most
I am even thinking I can make something like dividing the spoils of all this
MZprox: after corporation i'm fine lending out a 1000 gold again
2metraninja: yes, same here, once we start getting the 50 gpt from PP, it will be OK to give money
MZprox: but i need my 850 g bback for the next 4 turns
2metraninja: we even went asking Uciv for loan - halfway to mock them, halfway serious, as we could use those money
MZprox: then i get corp in 4, and now metra can do the upgrades he need
2metraninja: but if we are to pay insane interest% I thought we can arrange this between ourselves
I am even willing to postpone those upgrades and pull back a bit
if this will give boost to all our economies
MZprox: 50-60g is nice, but just one grenadiers/knight worth much more, so i agree that winning the war is more important
so no worries about gold now
2metraninja: yes, sadly we must keep focused on war
MZprox: do the upgrades if it helps you win a battle
2metraninja: ok, I will evaluate things tonight when I log in to the game and come again to say what we can do
Изпратено в 11:05, вторник
2metraninja: ot4e, how much gold you need to get to PP and in what time you can?
Ot4e: returning to the discussion about sharing spoils.. I was trying to deliver you the following idea. The land and cities is not the only spoils we get. And even more there are really not much ways we can divide the land fairly. May be we will have arguments about concrete food resources but it is not really big deal.
We all did big job creating this alliance and making it work even by not giving NAP to RB. But the burden of war is not the same for us all mainly because RB is not defending at the same rate against us all.
And therefore we expect some kind of preferences for what we have done already. Of course, I didnt ask about this before each extra slave we have taken or combat we entering sacrificing our wounded units. But I hope you guys understand me right.
Изпратено в 11:07, вторник
2metraninja: I do understand. and I am open for creating some kind of criteria
how we measure up war efforts?
initial thought is something like cumultive hammer count of units produced + units lost + RB units killed ?
does this sounds like good beginning?
Ot4e: I dont think that good formula can be found
2metraninja: well, we must go with some kind of way to measure this
MZprox: i gota go now, will be available later. about this: you surely noticed we are not just targeting thopse cities we think should belong us, it was simply élogical to take the least defnded ones fast before they grow big enough to be drafted. but even now our main army is against a city which will go to aztecs
we will stay in the war focused until rb is defeated, long after we tokk every city we wanted for ourselves
2metraninja: do you have units at each-other's stacks to make the killing blow and actually capture the city? remember cities cannot be gifted
Ot4e: we will combine those soon
2metraninja: ok then
MZprox: so.. at this point it's too early saying who lost what.. we might lose our entire army in a few turn.. though if test shows little hope we will not sacrifice our army in vain..
2metraninja: please think about those 3 (already) things: map with land division, Uciv handling and something like formula for war efforts calculating
I agree it is too early to say who lost who, but it is great time to decide how we measure this
because it is not finished yet and we can make non-biased formula
Ot4e: MZ, I know that you almost captured what you needed and we appreciate that you go on. We would have done the same for sure. And it is the achievement of everyone from us that you have taken your cities without big resist. I dont argue with this
2metraninja: same with us - this turn we will retreat to not let our army being killed
Ot4e: I am just asking for a small amount of gold or even a loan we will return
MZprox: I'm not sure about that... but then you would need to also measue the spolis.. hog good are eash individual captured city.. does it have wonder, towns instead of cottages.. actiual food resource etc.. it's also a fact that we get ours sooner
2metraninja: absolutely, ot4e is right that it is 100% common and joint effort
Изпратено в 11:15, вторник
2metraninja:
I think as for land spoils, we must keep teritorial principle and sphere of influence
otherwise it will be impossible to divide land fair in any other way
Изпратено в 11:16, вторник
2metraninja: actually, I am open for any suggestion, that is why I proposed the map drawing ideea
everyone can make his division and then he can give arguments why if there are heavy differencies in maps
Ot4e: I cant believe team No1 and team No2 are dodging from sharing with their small ally, who killed more units than they both combined and which will cost them 1,5 turn of income each just to gain 50-60 gpt 2 turns earlier.
2metraninja: dont get it like this, it is absolutely not what I had in mind when I started this discussion
I already said that I am OK with sharing the economical benefits of having one or the other PP first
MZprox: i can also share my income, but instead giving away 30-30 gold i guess lending a 1000 would worth more any of you
2metraninja: and I think about this purely on alliance level
I think yes, this was what all this discussion was meant to - everyone to say what he thinks and what he is OK with
no place for sour feelings
MZprox: also it would be best to know exactly how much gold one needs
and for how long
2metraninja: absolutely. this was all about I asked
Изпратено в 11:25, вторник
2metraninja: no place for sour feelings and playing pinched maid anyone
everyone have his worries and reasons
Ot4e: I didnt intentionally try to press on emotions
heh
2metraninja: if we were to complain and take things negative, we could well say that our income is the worst of all 3 allies and ask where is the logic in giving our gpt as loan to someone elase so he can get PP before us. but I am not saying that. I want to make discussion so we see what is best for us as alliance
MZprox: anyway, i really gota go now, ttyl
2metraninja: ok, MZ come join us again later
so ot4e, how much gold you will need and how the fastest you can get PP?
Изпратено в 11:30, вторник
Ot4e: for PP we have enough gold
we need some starting from turn 180 (including)
2metraninja: so you can get PP without us giving you gold or not?
Изпратено в 11:32, вторник
2metraninja: because if it is for some other tech, it will be for sure best to wait for us to get PP and just then give you money, or if we fund MZ now so he can get Corps, he will then fund us for PP while we give you money
Ot4e: yes, or may be that 50
2metraninja: what turn we are now?
Ot4e: 178
2metraninja: so you will need 50 gold per turn including t180?
or I did not got something?
Ot4e: no
2metraninja: ok, tell me
Ot4e: i mean ~50 gold total before 180 and later we need a bit more per turn, need to check how much
2metraninja: ok, that is absolutely feasible
Ot4e: and it is absolutely best to get supplies as soon as possible because our maintance is not big , but science is not crazy like MZs
2metraninja: so it wont be a problem we to give back money to MZ so he can get those Corps and then give us money so we can get quick PP
yeah, MZ have nice science bonus
are you building OU yet?
Ot4e: we cant produce so much beakers
2metraninja: neither we
Ot4e: we have OU
2metraninja: we have like 600 bpt at 100%
and we dont even have Edu
Ot4e: what are you paying your demohackers for?
2metraninja:
lol, I just dont remember
and did not wanted to go checking
honestly, we concentrate on enemies
I also have to check what money we will need for PP
damn, because of all those wars we postponed it for more than 50 turns
(((
those are 2500 gold clear
I wish we had 2500 cash now
25 grens more....
I start to think we might need to burn some serious cash to give us the punch we need to get over RB
Изпратено в 11:40, вторник
Ot4e: history doesnt accept subjunktives
or if it does
MZ sends you "hi" from alpha centauri in that universe where we all were teching instead of militarizing
Изпратено в 11:42, вторник
Ot4e: we also werent building Sofia to farm up
2metraninja: hahah
Изпратено в 11:46, вторник
2metraninja: neither we built Pyramids to slave our cottagers in to grenadiers more efficiently
Изпратено в 11:47, вторник
This is for the first time since the game started 
