Turtle Ship makes sense historically...

Historically yes, it's sort of representative of the ships' strong defense. BUT they are so useless in combat really, unable to strike the enemy all that quickly or well (because they can't move into the ocean). In reality, turtle ships were speedy ram ships primarily, and the cannons helped deal with ships from afar.

True, Korea wasn't interested in exploration. But the turtle ship didn't just fight pirates, it fought Toyotomi Hideyoshi's finest military minds, samurai generals battle-hardened. Thankfully, Japan's navy, while vast in number at the time, had ships greatly inferior to Korea's heavy-board panokson, and the plated (or not) turtle ships.

In my opinion the Korean UA is overpowered (and not historically accurate but that's another matter) so perhaps this balances it out somewhat by having Turtle ships limited to hugging the coast. It's a good tradeoff in any case. Especially with the other UU being pretty strong.

I'd be willing to see your point if you could give evidence of Turtle ships traveling on the open ocean. I don't think believe there is any but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

Although it may hinder someone playing Korea to an extent, it should help the AI play a somewhat convincing Korea. (Minus the psychopathic diplomacy and inept fighting ability of the AI of course.) For role playing purposes, I think they've done well.
 
I'd be willing to see your point if you could give evidence of Turtle ships traveling on the open ocean. I don't think believe there is any but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

i only spent about 5 seconds researching this, but:
"The Turtle Ships immediately crashed into several ships surprising the Japanese. Fearing that the Japanese soldiers would flee ashore and into the mountains and do a revenge raid on a Korean village, Admiral Yi ordered a false retreat to the open ocean. Encouraged by the sight of the Korean retreat, the Japanese fleet quickly advanced out of the bay in pursuit of the Korean fleet, with the flagship taking the lead. The Japanese began to fire their arquebuses at the Koreans but were not close enough."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Danghangpo

of course, they didn't go too far since it was just a false retreat, but still, they entered the ocean.
 
i only spent about 5 seconds researching this, but:
"The Turtle Ships immediately crashed into several ships surprising the Japanese. Fearing that the Japanese soldiers would flee ashore and into the mountains and do a revenge raid on a Korean village, Admiral Yi ordered a false retreat to the open ocean. Encouraged by the sight of the Korean retreat, the Japanese fleet quickly advanced out of the bay in pursuit of the Korean fleet, with the flagship taking the lead. The Japanese began to fire their arquebuses at the Koreans but were not close enough."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Danghangpo

of course, they didn't go too far since it was just a false retreat, but still, they entered the ocean.

If you examine where this battle takes place you'll see that it was around Goseong
고성 or Jinhae 진해.
280px-Map_Goseong-gun.png
280px-Map_Jinhae-si.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinhae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseong_%28Gyeongsangnam-do%29

Here we can see that the battle would have taken place in the Korea Straight. That's hardly the open ocean and the Korea Straight only averages 300 feet in depth. The Western Channel is somewhat deeper on average.

Korea_Strait.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Strait

Anyway, at least by Civ terms, it's not "open ocean" by any means. They may have used "ocean" in the article but it's basically a narrow straight littered with many small islands and bays in the area.

Also, it says the Koreans retreated in the open ocean and that the Japanese followed into the open sea. Not exactly consistent use of terminology.

The article also doesn't give any sources or references either which is unfortunate.
 
The Turtle ship blueprints were made before the Imjin War started. Becuz koreans (im too korean yeahh) knew and recognited of their invasion and constructed the plan for destructing of japanese ships purpose
they should ram them and sink them. What was needed was a special alloyed metal form to produce any. that metal alloy had to be very light, otherwise the armour would have been to haevy to sail with that

the amount of ships were too low to form a fleet going outside much and stayed rather coastal and were only needed to fight japanese ships during their imjin invasion

and Yi sunShin instructed to plan on that shipp

to lead them in sea battles against japanese suppply routes
 
From a gameplay perspective it's a real thorn in your side on continents maps. This civ will be popular to play peacefully and it's quite a handicap to not be able to go across oceans until frigates. The delay in cash and RAs from trade with the other continent/s really take the shine off of that great defensive UU and sweet UA.
 
Roman traders were certainly in India, Sri Lanka and Chola and Roman coins have even been uncovered in modern day Thailand.

[SPO...

Sorry, there is a huge difference between goods going from one place to another and people going from one place to another. Your quote describes trade between the two locations, that does not mean one person went from one place to the other with their trade goods. Goods were bought and sold at many intermediate points before finally arriving at their destination.

And Romans and Chinese being in receipt of each other products does not mean they ever met one another.
 
Sorry, there is a huge difference between goods going from one place to another and people going from one place to another. Your quote describes trade between the two locations, that does not mean one person went from one place to the other with their trade goods. Goods were bought and sold at many intermediate points before finally arriving at their destination.

And Romans and Chinese being in receipt of each other products does not mean they ever met one another.

This was in my post which I guess you missed:

Spoiler :
China is thought to have initiated formal contact with the "Western Regions" in the 2nd century BC, with the embassy of Zhang Qian.

The Roman historian Florus describes the visit of numerous envoys, including Seres (Chinese, or, more probably Central Asians), to the first Roman Emperor Augustus, who reigned between 27 BC and 14:

"Even the rest of the nations of the world which were not subject to the imperial sway were sensible of its grandeur, and looked with reverence to the Roman people, the great conqueror of nations. Thus even Scythians and Sarmatians sent envoys to seek the friendship of Rome. Nay, the Seres came likewise, and the Indians who dwelt beneath the vertical sun, bringing presents of precious stones and pearls and elephants, but thinking all of less moment than the vastness of the journey which they had undertaken, and which they said had occupied four years. In truth it needed but to look at their complexion to see that they were people of another world than ours."[1]

In 97 AD, the Chinese general Ban Chao unsuccessfully tried to send an envoy to Rome.[2][3] Several alleged Roman emissaries to China were recorded by ancient Chinese historians. The first one on record, supposedly from either the Roman emperor Antoninus Pius or the later emperor Marcus Aurelius, arrived in 166.[4][5]The Hou Hanshu records the arrival of Roman envoys, by sea to Chinese territory in what is now North Vietnam in 166 AD, presumably from either the Roman emperor Antoninus Pius or the later emperor Marcus Aurelius. The text specifically states that it was the first time there had been direct contact between the two countries.[6]
The trade relations between Rome and the East, including China, were described in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea in the 1st century AD

The indirect exchange of goods on the land (the so-called Silk Road) and sea routes included Chinese silk, Roman glassware, high-quality cloth, spices, perfumes, gems, etc.[7]

The Liangshu records the arrival in 226 AD of a merchant from the Roman Empire (Da Qin) at Jiaozhi (near modern Hanoi). The Prefect of Jiaozhi sent him to Sun Quan [the Wu (kingdom) emperor], who asked him for a report on his native country and its people. An expedition was mounted to return the merchant to along with 10 female and 10 male "blackish coloured dwarfs" he had requested as a curiosity and a Chinese officer who, unfortunately, died enroute.[8]

In classical sources, the problem of identifying references to ancient China is exacerbated by the interpretation of the Latin term "Seres" whose meaning fluctuated and could refer to a number of Asian people in a wide arc from India over Central Asia to China.[9] In Chinese records, the Roman Empire came to be known as "Da Qin", Great Qin, apparently thought to be a sort of counter-China at the other end of the world.[10] According to Pulleyblank, the "point that needs to be stressed is that the Chinese conception of Da Qin was confused from the outset with ancient mythological notions about the far west".[11]
Seems pretty clear that there was direct contact according to Chinese records.

You are correct though in that a lot of the trade would likely have been done through intermediaries. The Romans and Chinese could also have met in India and exchanged good as well.

However, this is straying off topic so I will stop. It would make a good topic for the History forums though. :)
 
if you want to explore as Korea, just go straight to Navigation and get a Frigate if you have Iron. Beakers for that would not be a big deal but Iron might be...

Frigate are suuupidupdup

english made best frigate to rule as british emp over all and naval superiory
 
Moderator Action: A general note: if you'd like to discuss history, you're very welcome to do so in the World History forum. But please keep discussion here focused on gameplay. Thanks.
 
Frankly, it should just be a unique unit for civs like Portugal, Spain, Denmark and the Dutch (if we ever get them) and not just an overpowered unit which people rush to. Asians remained mainly isolated, and Korea is a country which has never really had aspirations of world domination. They merely remained on the peninsula and did not go on conquering other civilizations..

Yeah ! And European civs should get 50% science penalty & a chance that GS is executed without being used in Medieval Era. :crazyeye: Seriously what was the point for saying that, we are playing civ not Europa Universalis III. Gameplay is more important & civ is not supposed to be 110% historically accurate. We are supposed to establish our own empire. The flexibilty in the nature of civ is one of the reason why it has so many possibilities. Play as Ottomans on TSL map & colonize New World for example. There are many possibilities.
 
"In the West, square sails were used in the galleys of Ancient Greece and the Viking longships, and the fore-and-aft variety as early as the Mediterranean dromon ships of the Middle Ages. When the Age of Exploration began in the fifteenth century, multiple-masted ships equipped with both types of sails eventually appeared. In Korea fore-and-aft sail equipped ships had been in use since the eighth century. Korea’s panokseon and Kobukson(TURTLE SHIP) therefore had two masts by default, and their position and angle could easily be managed so that the sails could be used in all winds, whether adverse or favorable."

"Because of the rough waters around Korea's coast, as well as the sudden changes in tides and currents, Korean boats throughout history had to be strong. Korean ship building tradition created simple, but very structurally sound vessels. Throughout Korea's naval history, strength and power was emphasized rather than speed."

10 seconds of Wiki research I found this...I believe the turtle ship was more than enough to travel the deep ocean. The developers should consider this and make the turtle ship be able to enter the deep sea but with lower movements than caravel.

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panokseon

Try to read everything if you have free time. Talks about Sejong the Great also.

"In the 15th century, under the lead of King Sejong, who was himself a pioneer of scientific research, the performance of these heavy artillery improved dramatically. Having built a cannon range next to the Royal Court, and after much experimentation and study, King Sejong finally increased the extent of the cannons’ firepower from 300 m (980 ft) to 1000 m (3,100 ft). Naval cannons were also developed at this time and among them, Heaven, Earth, Black and Yellow cannon were later employed by Yi Sun-sin."
 
Deleted my reply to Dokebi since I fear it is not focused on gameplay anymore.

I did start a thread in the World History forum on the subject though and my reply is there.

Feel free to contribute.
 
As a shallow hulled boat, the Turtle Ship is not optimised to travel in deeper waters with stronger currents, but it can. Although I am no naval engineer, it will definitely will be harrowing and suicidal if used for longer distance. Perhaps the capacity for travelling in ocean squares, but takes damage for every turn it remains in one?
 
As a shallow hulled boat, the Turtle Ship is not optimised to travel in deeper waters with stronger currents, but it can. Although I am no naval engineer, it will definitely will be harrowing and suicidal if used for longer distance. Perhaps the capacity for travelling in ocean squares, but takes damage for every turn it remains in one?

The turtle ship was built to going into rough waters and strong currents (wiki source), so I think it should be able to enter the deep water, but have much lower movements than caravel in the deep water since "Throughout Korea's naval history, strength and power was emphasized rather than speed." (Wiki source)
 
Dokebi:

The issue isn't hull strength - it's stability. A shallow-hulled vessel is inherently more unstable in the ocean's large waves compared to a deeper hulled vessel - it is more likely to capsize.
 
I believe any ocean tile appropriated by Korea can be navigated by the Tuttle Ship, same as an ironclad, which seems like a good compromise between a "could-they-theoretically-do-it-or-not" debate. Korea should probably get coastal start bias a la England and Ottomans to increase strategic role of the ship.
 
It's just that I feel like waste to go all the way in the tech tree to get the frigate early to see other countries.

Unless there is a change in naval battles, like more AI will attack you from naval early on, the turtle ship is really useless ship in this game. Okay, there might be one or two times maybe useful perhaps while going through the coast lines, you might see one or two barb ships, but it's not really important.

Who actually makes the turtle ship in this game? I seriously made one turtle ship and really had no use for it. The trireme does more than enough to travel the coast lines with ease. I really don't see the point of making the turtle ship in this game.
 
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