Typhoon of Steel - Version 3

[eric_A]

I read about a Navy plan that demanded an attack on Formosa immediately after the capture of Guam / Saipan to disrupt the Japanese oil routes, but MacArthur got his way and the US invaded the Philippines instead.

Is there any way to introduce the vulnerable Japanes oil route from Borneo to the Japanese homeland to the scenario? Perhaps by removing the technologies that allow trade routes via ocean and sea squares from Japan? If so, the Allied could cut off the Japanese core from the oil ressources in Borneo by holding Singapure and conquering Formosa.

Of course, there is still the oil field near Mandalay and airports. The oil field could be moved north, and airports would have to loose their ability to allow air trade, which is IMHO unrealistic anyway. There is no way the US could have supported China with oil by air, as it is possible in the scenario. This would increase the importance of the Burma road to supply China, too.

It's easy, I've done it several times, just capture all the oil on the
islands then bomb the roads in Burma.

 

[eric_A]

True, but if you created a kamikaze city improvement, you could restrict it being built to a specific location with the "Required goods must be within city radius" flag.

So, if you create a city improvement that costs as much as a factory, but produces a kamikaze unit every 5 turns, as the game goes on it could get rather expensive to invade the Japanese home island. That would make nukes a whole lot more attractive to research and build.

You should probably make sure that the kamikaze unit cannot be transported (or at least restrict them to an assault transport), so they don't get too stacked up in massive collections.




Aside from the fact that the Allies didn't use forced labour? I'd make a new form of government called "Japanese Monarchy" and make the forced labour require that form of government to be built. Between that restriction and the city based resource restriction, you limit it to being built only by the Japanese and only in the cities deemed appropriate.



Rather than do that, why not up the "turn penalty for each drafted citizen" setting to something like 50 turns? You'd hit a brick wall pretty quickly if you do that, since a drafted city will effectively never have happy citizens again.
In my opinion allowing the drafting of the rifleman unit is virtually useless. They don't have any value other than enforcing city happiness. They are not even useful defenders. If you do allow the riflemen, then consider allowing upgrades of rifleman to regular infantry. At least then there is a gold for unit type tradeoff decision to make.

The other option is to allow drafting, but have it create worker units, not military units. The worker unit could be the equivalent of a POW for the purposes of production.

Misfit

Thanks for that, I hadn't thought of any of those things, I will look into
them.

Eric

 

[El_Tigre]

Well, removing sea and ocean trade routes for Japan would allow for some interesting joint Chinese/CW/US operations in general. They wouldn't have to attack the resources (rubber, luxuries) itself, but could focus on the supply line, too, forcing Japan to spread out its defenders.

It's easy, I've done it several times, just capture all the oil on the islands then bomb the roads in Burma.

After reading that, an Allied victory sounds like a piece of cake to me...

 

[Misfit_travel]

I read about a Navy plan that demanded an attack on Formosa immediately after the capture of Guam / Saipan to disrupt the Japanese oil routes, but MacArthur got his way and the US invaded the Philippines instead.

Is there any way to introduce the vulnerable Japanes oil route from Borneo to the Japanese homeland to the scenario? Perhaps by removing the technologies that allow trade routes via ocean and sea squares from Japan? If so, the Allied could cut off the Japanese core from the oil ressources in Borneo by holding Singapure and conquering Formosa.

Of course, there is still the oil field near Mandalay and airports. The oil field could be moved north, and airports would have to loose their ability to allow air trade, which is IMHO unrealistic anyway. There is no way the US could have supported China with oil by air, as it is possible in the scenario. This would increase the importance of the Burma road to supply China, too.

Unfortunately, if you remove airports ability to handle air trade, you drastically limit China's ability to survive. China needs all the help it can get in the CIV game against a determined Japanese opponent.

Relocating the Mandalay oil field won't have any effect (in my opinion). The Japanese player is going to conquer all of Burma most likely anyway. Removing the oil field would be a serious barrier to Japan and force the attack on Indonesia virtually immediately (as opposed to the 10 weeks it took me to get around to it). If you remove it from Mandalay, putting it somewhere in Australia, you would have to allow airports to handle air trade, else the Commonwealth won't be able to build anything useful in Burma.

My suggestion would be to put an airport in Myitkyina (to permit resource supply after the harbour of Rangoon falls), and relocate the oil to Australia. That would seriously cramp the Japanese opening moves.

If somebody where really ambitious, you could redraw the map to add Commonwealth terrain west of Rangoon, adding a city or two. That would keep the pressure on Japan's left flank. My concern is that Japan can effectively empty China and Burma of troops and dump everything into Indonesia. There is no way to force them to leave something behind.

Misfit

 

[eric_A]

Relocating the Mandalay oil field won't have any effect (in my opinion). The Japanese player is going to conquer all of Burma most likely anyway.
Misfit

If the AI is playing Japan, it will almost never get as far as Mandalay.

 

[eric_A]

Relocating the Mandalay oil field won't have any effect (in my opinion). The Japanese player is going to conquer all of Burma most likely anyway. Removing the oil field would be a serious barrier to Japan and force the attack on Indonesia virtually immediately (as opposed to the 10 weeks it took me to get around to it). If you remove it from Mandalay, putting it somewhere in Australia, you would have to allow airports to handle air trade, else the Commonwealth won't be able to build anything useful in Burma.

Historically, there was oil in Burma and Burma was doomed once Rangoon
fell because there was no way to send in reinforcments.

I'd like to see how the war in China/Burma will play out with the new field
artillery before I change too much.

And who says guerillas are not useful??

Eric

 

[El_Tigre]

If somebody where really ambitious, you could redraw the map to add Commonwealth terrain west of Rangoon, adding a city or two.

Indeed, that's the actual problem: after conquering Burma, there is no India left that can put pressure on the Japanese flank.

My suggestion would be to put an airport in Myitkyina (to permit resource supply after the harbour of Rangoon falls), and relocate the oil to Australia. That would seriously cramp the Japanese opening moves.

Good idea! But I do think that China should ONLY be supplied via Burma (using the Australian oil and the airport in Myitkyina). My suggestion: There are two flags in the editor concerning airports, "allow air trade" and "veteran air units". Create two different airports, one for China and Japan that does not enable air trade, and a different airport for the US/CW that does enable air trade. Relocate the oil from Mandalay to Australia, as you suggested (actually, the Brits destroyed most of the infrastructure while retreating). Myitkyina, with its advanced airport, can supply China with oil. Japan now faces a tough decision: attack Burma, to cut off China from oil, or concentrate on Indonesia, so secure the own supply lines. Now remove sea and ocean trade routes for Japan, to add more strategy.

Oh, and if you want to strengthen China, why not add a "Burma Road" wonder in Kunming, that produces a unit every 5 turns, but requires oil and rubber to work?

Historically, there was oil in Burma and Burma was doomed once Rangoon
fell because there was no way to send in reinforcments.

The Allies retreated to India, and eventually recaptured Burma from the west.

 

[eric_A]

Indeed, that's the actual problem: after conquering Burma, there is no India left that can put pressure on the Japanese flank.

Good idea! But I do think that China should ONLY be supplied via Burma (using the Australian oil and the airport in Myitkyina). My suggestion: There are two flags in the editor concerning airports, "allow air trade" and "veteran air units". Create two different airports, one for China and Japan that does not enable air trade, and a different airport for the US/CW that does enable air trade. Relocate the oil from Mandalay to Australia, as you suggested (actually, the Brits destroyed most of the infrastructure while retreating). Myitkyina, with its advanced airport, can supply China with oil. Japan now faces a tough decision: attack Burma, to cut off China from oil, or concentrate on Indonesia, so secure the own supply lines. Now remove sea and ocean trade routes for Japan, to add more strategy.

Oh, and if you want to strengthen China, why not add a "Burma Road" wonder in Kunming, that produces a unit every 5 turns, but requires oil and rubber to work?

The Allies retreated to India, and eventually recaptured Burma from the west.

The focus in TOS is on air-naval operations in the Pacific, I will leave
expanding the Burma-India front to another scenario. It is my belief that
if I try to do too much the scenario will suffer. But thanks for your
input.

Eric

 

[Misfit_travel]

The focus in TOS is on air-naval operations in the Pacific, I will leave
expanding the Burma-India front to another scenario. It is my belief that
if I try to do too much the scenario will suffer. But thanks for your
input.

Eric

Besides which, editing an existing map is a serious pain.......



Misfit

 

[Misfit_travel]

Some minor stuff from the V3.0 beta game.

Why doesn't San Fran have a Factory at game start? Every other mainland US city does.

Why doesn't San Diego have an Airport at game start? In the short game, why not give the US cities of San Diego and Reno the airport city improvement right away. That would let the US player immediately build any kind of veteran unit they need in any mainland US city.

Why does Darwin have a Coal Plant, but not a Factory? I would have thought it would have been the opposite (and they won't have as much of a pollution problem).

Misfit

 

[eric_A]

Some minor stuff from the V3.0 beta game.

Why doesn't San Fran have a Factory at game start? Every other mainland US city does.

Why doesn't San Diego have an Airport at game start? In the short game, why not give the US cities of San Diego and Reno the airport city improvement right away. That would let the US player immediately build any kind of veteran unit they need in any mainland US city.

Why does Darwin have a Coal Plant, but not a Factory? I would have thought it would have been the opposite (and they won't have as much of a pollution problem).

Misfit

All that is left over from the original Firaxis scenario, it would make
sense to change it in V4.00.

 

[El_Tigre]

Some minor stuff from the V3.0 beta game.

Why doesn't San Fran have a Factory at game start? Every other mainland US city does.

Why doesn't San Diego have an Airport at game start? In the short game, why not give the US cities of San Diego and Reno the airport city improvement right away. That would let the US player immediately build any kind of veteran unit they need in any mainland US city.

Why does Darwin have a Coal Plant, but not a Factory? I would have thought it would have been the opposite (and they won't have as much of a pollution problem).

Misfit

Many larger Japanese, Chinese and CW cities have Coal Plants, but no factories. I thought of it as a feature, because it increases the advantage of NOT mobilizing until factories have been build in these cities. I suggest to disband the Coal Plants immediately if you do mobilize at the beginning; the upkeep is rather expensive (3gpt).

There is no harbor in LA, too.

 

[eric_A]

Many larger Japanese, Chinese and CW cities have Coal Plants, but no factories. I thought of it as a feature, because it increases the advantage of NOT mobilizing until factories have been build in these cities. I suggest to disband the Coal Plants immediately if you do mobilize at the beginning; the upkeep is rather expensive (3gpt).

Good way to raise some cash too.

Maybe there are perfectly good reasons for why the improvments,
are the way they are, I know LA does not have a harbour, the
closest is Long Beach.

Eric

 

[eric_A]

El Tigre and I have started a 2 player PBEM game to test the following:

1. Invisible subs
2. A combined sub tactics+ASW tech (cost 170)
3. Possible problems with the population control mechanism

El Tigre is Japan and I am the USA, the other countries are AI.

We will be posting progress reports and the ocassional screen shot in
this thread.

***** P.S. *******
some things I forgot to mention:
1. Game length is 50 turns, 10 more than the usual short game to allow
us to get through more of the tech tree.

2. Special rules (apply to human players only):
No city razing.
Guerillas cannot be loaded on transports.

 

[El_Tigre]

My best Pearl Harbor so far! I sank 5 BBs and the CA, and the Harbor has been destroyed.

However, words fail me for what happened in the western theaters: a 1hp ANZAC in Hongkong killed three units (all could have retreated), the Repulse and Prince of Wales are in a better condition than at the start, Guerillas massacred my Infantry against all odds and although I took Sian, it cost me my Infantry Army on the very first turn (a terrible, terrible dice roll)! I took Aparri and Bhuket, and have prepared the assault on other cities (I could have probably taken more, but after what had happened in China, I became quite cautious).

 

[Misfit_travel]

My best Pearl Harbor so far! I sank 5 BBs and the CA, and the Harbor has been destroyed.

However, words fail me for what happened in the western theaters: a 1hp ANZAC in Hongkong killed three units (all could have retreated), the Repulse and Prince of Wales are in a better condition than at the start, Guerillas massacred my Infantry against all odds and although I took Sian, it cost me my Infantry Army on the very first turn (a terrible, terrible dice roll)! I took Aparri and Bhuket, and have prepared the assault on other cities (I could have probably taken more, but after what had happened in China, I became quite cautious).

El Tigre:

Since you are playing against the AI in China and Commonwealth, you can rely on them not curtailing some of your key advantages; your mobility and air power.

I suggest that your China campaign be waged by concentrating all your forces into specific targets. Use overwhelming force to obliterate your opposition without taking any losses. Draft like mad and use artillery and conscript infantry to attack isolated guerilla and Chinese infantry. You'll upgrade them in no time. Use your artillery to its maximum advantage but concentrating it into large stacks to weaken your opponent down to as few HPs as possible, particularly the Anzac units since these are the only units that can really hurt you early.

Nice work on Pearl. I've never done that well. Concentrate on destroying Eric_a's air power. You'll probably have better luck bombarding his land based units (especially Hilo). Battleships do a great job of taking out land based air units, without the danger of having to risk your bombers / dive / torpedo bomber units to flak or air superiority counterfire.

Misfit

 

[El_Tigre]

Misfit_travel:

Submarines are invisible right now, and the US have several around Pearl Harbor, so I have to retreat Kido Butai.

Thanks for the advice on China, but I doubt I can do as well as you did in the TOS-PBEM after loosing one army.

 

[eric_A]

My best Pearl Harbor so far! I sank 5 BBs and the CA, and the Harbor has been destroyed.

However, words fail me for what happened in the western theaters: a 1hp ANZAC in Hongkong killed three units (all could have retreated), the Repulse and Prince of Wales are in a better condition than at the start, Guerillas massacred my Infantry against all odds and although I took Sian, it cost me my Infantry Army on the very first turn (a terrible, terrible dice roll)! I took Aparri and Bhuket, and have prepared the assault on other cities (I could have probably taken more, but after what had happened in China, I became quite cautious).

But Americans are outraged, of course, by this sneak attack and the heavy
loss of life. All except for Admiral Halsey who was overheard to mutter:

"Good, I won't have those damn old battleships to slow me down!"

Note, I changed the player order in this game so that EL Tigre could
watch the AI moves. So the USA actually went first. On my turn I did not,
move, fortify or draft any units. I did set up my research and production, and
I did sell advanced construction to the AI for a horde of gold.

As for the Repulse and the Prince of Wales, the AI is far to stupid to
move them out of harms way, it will proably use them to shell Saigon,
so you will be able to sink them next turn.

 

[Misfit_travel]

Misfit_travel:

Submarines are invisible right now, and the US have several around Pearl Harbor, so I have to retreat Kido Butai.

Thanks for the advice on China, but I doubt I can do as well as you did in the TOS-PBEM after loosing one army.

Sure you can. You are playing against the AI, whereas I had to play against a human (Eric_A) who knew what he was doing (and more importantly knew my tactics).

Attack with elite units constantly. You'll pop leaders in no time and replace your army. Keep in mind if you only stack 2 units in an army, they fit into a regular transport. Very useful for Indonesian island hopping.....

BTW, a tactic I'd suggest for countering the invisible sub is to surround the mass BB / CV stack with DDs and CAs (like a star by with 2 DD/CA units per tile), then plow straight through wherever you are going. Two things will happen; a) if the sub is in your way, you'll trigger a hidden attack against it, thereby revealing its presence to you to kill (if you're lucky, or attack with another unit to finish it off if your first unit dies) or b) the subs will have to hack their way thru at least 2 units to get a shot at your CVs or BBs. That will force the opponent to "wolfpack" his subs, thereby dramatically reducing the amount of ocean he can cover. It won't prevent the sub from telling the fleet where to bombard, but that's what you have air cover for......

Keep moving your stack at is maximum movement rate every turn will also prevent wolfpacking, as they don't have the MPs to keep up with you. That will buy you enough time to get ASW up and running, then the subs are dead meat.

Good luck.

 

[eric_A]

Played and Sent

Phillipines:
Sank 2 DD, lost 1 DD attacking

South of Midway:
sank 1 DD

North of Pearl:
damaged 2 BB and 1 CA with a combination of bombers & battleship
bombard.

Lastly, and most important, sank a transport due north of Rabaul.

Oops, forgot to mention, all sinkings were by subs, except the one near
Midway, that was done by dive bombers. In the future if I do
not say what sunk your ship, you can safely assume it was a sub.