Typhoon of Steel - Version 3

I finished my history paper yesterday and will play the first turn in the Kamikaze
Contest this weekend. I downloaded MP V3.07 and will use it for the game,
unless there is a new version pending.

----

A suggestion for V4.00:

The capital of the Dutch East Indies should be Batavia. It was the seat of the
colonial administration and the military HQ. I have now idea why Koepang is the
capital in the original scenario, and always thought it was a weird choice. Btw,
Batavia (now Jakarta) still is the capital of Indonesia.

I'll post more comments in the next days, I finally have some spare time again.
 
Finally back on track with my life as well. I'm just about to start the v3.07 Kamikaze test with El_Tigre. Should be interesting to see how China plays with the tweaks.

Misfit
 
Eric_A:

After playing v3.07 with El_Tigre I think that the scenario is pretty balanced, but I still think that Sub Warfare tech is too expensive. As the Jap player I went for it on turn 1 and it took 12 turns to research. In the short game that is an eternity in which an awful lot of sub damage can occur. I don't think this tech should take more than 8-9 turns to research.

Best case scenario is that the US or Jap chooses it as the first tech. Then take 8-9 turns to research. Once researched, quickly switch city production to build destroyer escort, producing some on the 9-10th turn. Then spend 3-4 turns moving them into a theatre to use them.

My two cents based on playtesting.

Cheers
Misfit
 
I've played with Japan (long version) and I liked it better than the original. The fact that the AI knew all the time where my ships were was frustrating but that is just something I must learn to live with.

Here are my comments:
- Destroyers should be able to see subs. The basic destroyers (Japanese) can not.
- PT Boat are a good idea, but they should be stronger, maybe making them detect subs and giving them even more movement points.
- Kamikaze: why not make it like a missil instead of a ground unit?
- The ASW plane does not detect subs (when doing recon).
- I understand why you limited units using airports, but I think they should allow transfer for infantry units (at least the basic ones). Maybe airports should be made much more expensive instead?
- Guerillas: good changes! They were much more dangerous than the initial scenario!
 
Hi Luthor! Welcome to TOS! Eric A has done a tremendous job creating and tweaking TOS.

One of the big differences between the original C3C scenario and TOS is movement..or lack there of. Eric limited movement to create a more realistic feel to traversing a large body of water..ie the Pacific theater.

The US and especially Japan did not have the technology/transport capacity to move troops by air as I'm sure you know. By removing the C3C airport function to move troops, TOS more accurately reflects WWII troop movement capabilities. Which was to move them by sea in TF's.

I seem to be the only one who disagrees about how guerillas act in TOS! I think they are too many and too strong to the WWII equivalent. But everyone else loves them! I find it even more so in solo play as the computer AI tends to build them in lieu of infantry. Nope, I don't like them at all. But Eric knows it and puts up with me complaining about them!

But my ranting leads me to a thought for you to consider Eric....how about adding a new small wonder in TOS4 called Merrill's Marauders? Or make it a unit for the US to build. It would be very strong offensively and have stealth movement/attack capability. Now that is a true guerilla unit!

Luthor, email me if you would like to play a PBEM with TOS.

Sully
 
Sully:

In v3.07 Eric_A removed the Guerilla Stealth Attack against artillery. It makes a huge difference in their capabilities. In my games against El_Tigre, they were considerably less effective.

You might want to give them another try. It might change your opinion.

I do like the idea of PT boats being able to see subs.

Regards
Misfit
 
I have 3.07 and you're right Misfit...makes a difference. But the cheap cost makes it the unit of choice for the AI to build. They still are formidable in single play. Congrats on your Kamikaze victory and good luck in the next round. My money is on you my friend!

Sully
 
Misfit_travel said:
Eric_A:

After playing v3.07 with El_Tigre I think that the scenario is pretty balanced, but I still think that Sub Warfare tech is too expensive. As the Jap player I went for it on turn 1 and it took 12 turns to research. In the short game that is an eternity in which an awful lot of sub damage can occur. I don't think this tech should take more than 8-9 turns to research.

Best case scenario is that the US or Jap chooses it as the first tech. Then take 8-9 turns to research. Once researched, quickly switch city production to build destroyer escort, producing some on the 9-10th turn. Then spend 3-4 turns moving them into a theatre to use them.

My two cents based on playtesting.

Cheers
Misfit
Click to expand...

Misfit:
Thanks for the feedback. In the new scenario, HOF, I split sub warfare
back into two parts , ASW and advanced subs. In TOS V4 I will probably
do the same thing, and each tech will cost less than half as much as
the combined sub warfare.

Other tech changes for V4:
Techs are no longer tradeable
No more advanced construction, Seabees are a "unique unit" for
the USA only.
The tech tree will look a lot like the one in the HOF thread.
 
Borrowing again from the HOF scenario, this is what I have in
mind for TOS V4:

Introduce a new civ, Communist China, which would always be AI
controlled. They would be the only Civ able to produce Guerilla units.
Guerillas would have hidden nationality so they can attack both Japan
and Nationalist China even if they are at peace. They would have no stealth
attack. I would also give the Communists some immobile units with very high
defense to make their cities very hard to take.
 
eric_A said:
Borrowing again from the HOF scenario, this is what I have in
mind for TOS V4:

Introduce a new civ, Communist China, which would always be AI
controlled. They would be the only Civ able to produce Guerilla units.
Guerillas would have hidden nationality so they can attack both Japan
and Nationalist China even if they are at peace. They would have no stealth
attack. I would also give the Communists some immobile units with very high
defense to make their cities very hard to take.
Click to expand...

I think this brings the guerilla concept more into the WWII framework Eric. I'd like you to consider the Merrill's Marauders concept I listed above too.
Frankly by 1941 the China theater was one more of stalemate. The Japs just didn't suffiecient forces to take large scalle offensive ops against inland China. The majority of their forces were NE China sitting in defensive positions against the Russians. This is not to say that nothing was happening. But this precluded any major offensives against the Communist and Nationalist forces.

The Japanese Southern Army units were doing double duties. They were making the initial attacks against the PI and Malaysia. THen Borneo and Burma, Cebes Ops, and Solomens. This was all going on while the Northern Army maintained a primarily defensive posture.

I'd like to see V4 have more Jap Garrison forces especially in its SE Asia cities.

Sully
 
Luthor_Saxburg said:
I've played with Japan (long version) and I liked it better than the original. The fact that the AI knew all the time where my ships were was frustrating but that is just something I must learn to live with.

Here are my comments:
- Destroyers should be able to see subs. The basic destroyers (Japanese) can not.
- PT Boat are a good idea, but they should be stronger, maybe making them detect subs and giving them even more movement points.
- Kamikaze: why not make it like a missil instead of a ground unit?
- The ASW plane does not detect subs (when doing recon).
- I understand why you limited units using airports, but I think they should allow transfer for infantry units (at least the basic ones). Maybe airports should be made much more expensive instead?
- Guerillas: good changes! They were much more dangerous than the initial scenario!
Click to expand...

Luthor:
No destroyers, Allied or Japanese can see subs at the start of the
game. That's the way I intended it to be. You will have to use diffirent
tactics, like putting a screen of destroyers around your convoys to
protect them. You will also have to build more destroyers and transports.
PT boats are good for screening convoys as well. I don't agree that
PT boats should be able to see subs, this would pretty much make subs
useless once the PT boats arrived.

ASW aircraft: that's a civ bug, nothing I can to to fix it.

As I recall the kamikaze is flagged as cruise missle. That's just the way
missles work it civ.
 
Some suggestions I have for the game:

Part 1 (Important)
==============
- Weaker armies: basic capacity of only 1 unit per army. It would still be worth it because it becames a faster unit with a Blitz capacity! (this is not scen related, but more Civ related)
- Change in Leaders: make them able to rush improvements (to compensate for the loss of army power)
- Monarchy: have trade bonus and good unit supply support. I suggest removing "trade bonus".
- Reduce battle defensive bonus of coast, sea & ocean. Why do defensive units got an advantage? My suggestion would be 0%.

Part 2 (Minor)
==========
- I-boats stronger than Allied Subs
- Allied Adv Submarines stronger than Japanese Adv Submarines
- Strenghten PT Boat: Radar, slighter stronger attack, higher movement points
- Less change of terrain: make workers much more expensive and slower. Specially in building roads, railroads and airfields.
- Make Guerillas and rifleman able to be transported between airfields (airlift?)
- Make Subs (all types) and PT-Boats able to make stealth attack also against other ships: Battleships, AA Cruisers, Destroyers, Adv Destroyers, etc.
 
Luthor_Saxburg said:
Some suggestions I have for the game:

Part 1 (Important)
==============
- Weaker armies: basic capacity of only 1 unit per army. It would still be worth it because it becames a faster unit with a Blitz capacity! (this is not scen related, but more Civ related)
- Change in Leaders: make them able to rush improvements (to compensate for the loss of army power)
- Monarchy: have trade bonus and good unit supply support. I suggest removing "trade bonus".
- Reduce battle defensive bonus of coast, sea & ocean. Why do defensive units got an advantage? My suggestion would be 0%.

Part 2 (Minor)
==========
- I-boats stronger than Allied Subs
- Allied Adv Submarines stronger than Japanese Adv Submarines
- Strenghten PT Boat: Radar, slighter stronger attack, higher movement points
- Less change of terrain: make workers much more expensive and slower. Specially in building roads, railroads and airfields.
- Make Guerillas and rifleman able to be transported between airfields (airlift?)
- Make Subs (all types) and PT-Boats able to make stealth attack also against other ships: Battleships, AA Cruisers, Destroyers, Adv Destroyers, etc.
Click to expand...

Luthor:
Thanks for the suggestions. Subs are supposed to have stealth attack
against all types of surface ships. If this is not the case please let me
know which ship type is not included.
PT boats have stealth attack against transports only. Because they are
so cheap I am reluctant to make them too powerful, that might unbalance
the game.
 
@Eric_A

Submarines don't have stealth vs Adv Destroyer and Destroyer Escort.
Adv Submarines don't have stealth vs CW Fast Battleship.
Adv Submarines have stealth vs submarines (3 basic types). Should they?
NOTE: I-Boats have stealth attack vs Betty Bomber. :eek:


PT Boats having stealth against much stronger ships than them is not really making them overpowerfull! I believe the PT-Boats is a good idea but I have not really found a good use for them yet. They are not really that good.
PT Boats have 1/3 of cost vs Adv Sub's, have 1/4 of their attack and are not invisible. So their only advantage seems to be movement, so I would suggest more of that and +1 Attack.

.
 
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