Umm, Jaguar warriors?`This has to be a bug right?

[Mujadaddy]

copy your assets directory, then create a directory in mods and paste your entire assets directory into it, then modify to your hearts content .

The game will generally tell you where a mistake is (at least what file) if you mess something up, so as long as you're conservative in your changes between startups you'll be fine.

Heh, yeah I gotcha---what I meant is that I want to play the game as-released before I start futzin' with it

 

[zeeter]

This discussion regarding not having Iron seems strange. I don't think I've ever had a game (noble) where there was no iron around. Maybe it's more scarce in harder levels.

 

[onedreamer]

The tradeoff is they don't require iron!!!
That's the main deal!!
Imagine this:

2 Civs at war, Aztecs & Romans.
1 Roman Preatorian pillages the ONLY Iron mine of Aztec.
Montezuma: Let them pillage! We have mighty Jaguar Warriors!! Unleashed them!!
1 Jaguar Warrior strolls over to the ONLY Iron mine of Rome & pillages it.
*Screams are heard*
Messanger to Caesar: Rome is doomed, Caesar!!! We can no longer produce Preatorians!!
Caesar: My, my... Not expecting this from Montezuma... Interesting...

But I digress
Without Iron forget about Swordmen. This case, Rome will need to fall back on producing Archers or Spearmen and is on the defensive. If the Aztecs can hold out the Iron source and mob them with enough Jaguar Warriors, the result is predictable.

My 2 cents

Really ? Then what about this:
Rome will produce axemen instead of spearmen (you were joking, right ?) and laugh their arse loud at Jaguar Warriors, since they are shock troops with the SAME base strength of Axemen, they are dead meat. And believe me, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a civ doesn't get iron AND copper within reasonable reach from its capital. The no iron tradeoff is not a tradeoff at all.
Swordsmen are the only real effective unit to attack cities in the ancient age, they are therefore blatanly attack units. Why then the Aztecs UU gets a silly defensive bonus (that will come to effect in very rare occasions, unless of course you start modding maps etc) and even have their base strength decreased ? Utterly useless unit, even worse than useless actually. Useless is a french Musketeer, Jaguar Warriors are actually a penalty.

 

[onedreamer]

This discussion regarding not having Iron seems strange. I don't think I've ever had a game (noble) where there was no iron around. Maybe it's more scarce in harder levels.

no it isn't. The iron "excuse" in Italy would be called "climbing on the mirrors".

 

[slothman]

Now yes I am Roman instead of Aztec, no one can withstand my Preatorians hehe, but I have iron right NEXT to my capital.
If I was Aztec but in the same map would Jags have any use?
Of course this is anecdotal but I am still wondering about this particular case.

 

[zeeter]

I'd say it's settled. Jaguar Warriors are useless in the game except on those very rare occasions when there isn't any iron around, and when no neighbors will trade with you. And like I said before - I'm not going to choose my civ based on the slight chance that theres no iron around.

And moving on, what do you do when the Jaguars are obsolete? Still no iron unless you managed to capture some. How do you build macemen? Don't ships require iron? Can't remember. Tanks?

 

[onedreamer]

I'd say it's settled. Jaguar Warriors are useless in the game except on those very rare occasions when there isn't any iron around, and when no neighbors will trade with you.

No I'd go further and say that they are a penalty in any case because if I have to choose between making an axeman or a jaguar warrior I will choose the first all the times. Axemen need copper or iron, and cases when you have neither of the two are around 1 on 100. And even in that case, jaguar warriors DO remain useless, because if you don't have iron and you don't have copper you are in such a deep **** that jaguar warriors won't help at all, especially once macemen and longbowmen kick in.

 

[Wodan]

I'd say to count Jaguar Warriors as a non-benefit. That is, not really a benefit as far as a UU goes. They're good IF you don't have iron OR bronze.

The reason to play the Aztecs comes in from their traits, I think. Some civs you play because they have a good early UU. I guess the Aztecs aren't on that list. However, they're still on the "some civs you play because you feel like playing their trait combo" list.

Wodan

 

[romelus]

i've played aztec before. didn't have iron. used jags with cover to wipe out isabella nearby, she also had no resources and only had archers.

still i don't think jags are that great. when you send your first jag to pillage my iron which i'm trying to connect, i can just make 2 or 3 archers (or better axemen if i have copper) and they will kill the jag. by the time you send a sizable force of jags, i have already connected the iron and have built more axemen/archers and swordsmen. and both axe and swords will kill jags. or i could have gone on a different research path and gotten horse archers, who also kill jags.

jags are only useful when you have no iron, copper and horse. it's pretty pathetic to me to choose a civ based on the worst case scenario, which occurs in perhaps 1 in 20 games

 

[warpstorm]

IMHO, the Aztecs have one of best early UUs, but you have to use it early.

The way I use jags is to assume that I have no useful resources. I build a barracks and a few scouts to find the enemies. I beeline for Iron Working. I can get anything else later. I may make a worker. I do not waste time on a settler. The second I can start making jags I make a huge stack of them and roll over the nearest AI or two. This has not failed yet. They are typically wasting time doing things like building workers and settlers and hooking up resources and haven't spent time on things mlike military or defenses. You don't have to worry about those distractions at this point. YOu can stay focused on military.

Against the AI you will likely take out your two nearest neighbors before any AIs develop enough good defenses to make Jags useless (and they are if you wait too long).

 

[Wodan]

IMHO, the Aztecs have one of best early UUs, but you have to use it early.

The way I use jags is to assume that I have no useful resources. I build a barracks and a few scouts to find the enemies. I beeline for Iron Working. I can get anything else later. I may make a worker. I do not waste time on a settler. The second I can start making jags I make a huge stack of them and roll over the nearest AI or two. This has not failed yet. They are typically wasting time doing things like building workers and settlers and hooking up resources and haven't spent time on things mlike military or defenses. You don't have to worry about those distractions at this point. YOu can stay focused on military.

Against the AI you will likely take out your two nearest neighbors before any AIs develop enough good defenses to make Jags useless (and they are if you wait too long).

Can't you take all the "Jags" above and substitute "Axemen" or "Swordsmen"?

You need 1 worker and you might need a 2nd settler over by the iron or copper. But, you get the benefit of a 2nd city with which to churn out Axes or Swords.

Pretty much, if you build 99% military, you're going to roll over the first couple of AIs no matter how you look at it....

Wodan

 

[mjsbx]

perhaps this has been said (i didn't read the whole thread)

but the real advantage to the jaguar is that it has the coolest animation in the game. otherwise.....doesn't seem that great of a unit.

 

[onedreamer]

I'd say to count Jaguar Warriors as a non-benefit. That is, not really a benefit as far as a UU goes. They're good IF you don't have iron OR bronze.

no, they are only good if you don't have iron AND bronze (you meant copper).

[...]still i don't think jags are that great. when you send your first jag to pillage my iron which i'm trying to connect, i can just make 2 or 3 archers (or better axemen if i have copper) [...]

if you have a iron resource to pillage, it means you can make axemen with no need of copper, since axemen require iron OR copper. This also means that if you have iron, a bunch of pathetic jaguar warriors will never be able to pillage it, unless you want them to do it.

IMHO, the Aztecs have one of best early UUs, but you have to use it early.

The way I use jags is to assume that I have no useful resources. I build a barracks and a few scouts to find the enemies. I beeline for Iron Working. I can get anything else later. I may make a worker. I do not waste time on a settler. The second I can start making jags I make a huge stack of them and roll over the nearest AI or two. This has not failed yet. They are typically wasting time doing things like building workers and settlers and hooking up resources and haven't spent time on things mlike military or defenses. You don't have to worry about those distractions at this point. YOu can stay focused on military.

Against the AI you will likely take out your two nearest neighbors before any AIs develop enough good defenses to make Jags useless (and they are if you wait too long).

It's all nice and true, but the point is that you follow this tactic because you know of the AI behaviour... personally I think this kind of military victory is meaningless. Btw on decent diff. levels the AI doesn't need to build a worker to hook up resources as it already has one. Lastly I must add that against a human player this tactic MIGHT work but only once, and that's all. I wish that Jaguars were useless, the problem here is that they are worse than useless. Like someone suggested Aztecs should be able to build both swordsmen and jaguars. That would make of this unit a useful one.

 

[Oggums]

This thread is already too long to read, but here's my 2 cents:

I do like Jaguars, because Aztecs start with Mysticism and you can research a religion first, without any worry of getting screwed out of copper/iron.

With any other Civ, you need to find those resources early. If you don't, the AI will settle them before you, and you just have to cross your fingers that a mine spawns in your existing cultural boundaries, or you'll be going archer vs. axemen and swords (i.e. you lost this game).

With Aztecs, you can hold off on those techs with no worries. 10-15 Jaguars will take that enemy iron city, at which point you can switch to Axes, which are better.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The problem is that if the enemy has metal they Will beat you unitwise (Axemen better than Jaguars)

Best solution would seem to be giving Jaguars a bonus v. melee (essentially making them high tech reourceless Axemen) perhaps only make it 10-20% instead of the Axeman's 25%

Or else make them an upgrade to Axeman instead of Swordsmen (a strength 5resourceless Axeman that has no bonuses at all, or strength 4 with the normal Axeman bonus)

 

[Oggums]

You must be talking about multiplayer?

You wont lose vs. the AI just because Axemen are better than Jaguars. Aztecs are a good choice.

I wouldn't play Aztec or ever go religions first anyway, in multiplayer. So I'll just go ahead and agree that Aztecs just suck for multiplayer.

 

[troytheface]

most defenders early are archers. Since horse is the best attacker against such than an early jag supported by Chariot should clean up in the war monger mode- bee lining for iron as suggested above is a good idea, but i'd get animal husbandry first. I War Mongered my last game using such tactics with FDR and destroyed Victoria in short order. (Prince, Large Continents)

 

[Wodan]

Aztecs start with Mysticism and you can research a religion first, without any worry of getting screwed out of copper/iron.

Excellent point.

Or, you can research sailing techs (to get Colossus / Great lighthouse), or Cottages. Still, it's by far the best benefit I've heard in this whole thread.

Wodan

 

[A+ombomb]

Jaguars are more of an early game rush unit. If you go straight for iron working, you can instantly chop-build a whole bunch of jags, whereas in order to get iron units you need to first discover iron working, then mine it/road it, then connect all your cities, then finally you can produce them.

 

[Rumfinger]

Horse Archers get no defense bonus. They make lousy city defenders.

Not if you undertake what I call "active" defense....that being, station them in a city full of archers and spearmen, ensuring that the city is surrounded with a lot of open space. Then once the enemy is within range, ride out and attack, then retreat back to the city. I did this against a vastly superior Greek force in one game and wiped out their entire army.