UN Wonder 1752

[Kev]

Well, we have a pretty good chance for the UN wonder. With an extra round of freights, we'll be able to put about 7 or 8 toward this wonder being built in Olympia. A few turns after that, with rails spreading out, we can have the thing pretty much done.

The questions is, do we want to push for this and if so, how hard?

Some of the pro's:

1. Embassies with all civs. While this is not a huge deal now as we have spies and already established 4 on our own, it will give us ones with the Zulus and Germans right away.

2. More influence on wartime events. Contacting the civs we're at war with will more likely result in the end of hostilities. This can be nice with situations like we have now with the Zulus, Romans, and Germans - forcing peace with them as we crush a different civ. We could contact them and they'd almost be required to call a halt - without extortion. I'll cover the negatives to this below.

3. Senate becomes more malleable. The "Hawk" party in the Senate is usually more willing to allow us the ability to break treaties and attack as well as continue fighting even in the face of entreaties by our enemies. A nice thing to have while fighting in Democracy.

4. No cascade. There are no other wonders to switch to, so if we finish the UN first all of the other civs will waste the shields they've used. This assumes that we finish before someone gets to electronics (Hoover) or genetic engineering (Cure for Cancer) - which seems very likely. Keep in mind that Olympia can just keep building it until electronics comes on board.

5. Tough to take on the civ that gets the UN. If someone else gets the UN, they'll be a pain to attack as they will constantly force the fighting to stop.

Negatives:

1. Civs more apt to "declare peace". There are many times that we'll WANT a civ in question to declare war on us. That's usually a good thing as it gives us a reason to fight and our rep does not take a hit. The UN will often keep that other civ from declaring.

2. Using freights... AGAIN. Some of the cities building freights for wonders have 0 or 1 trade route. We will need to develop trade some more.

3. Useful in Democracy - not so much with others. Other than against the civ who has the UN, war while in another government other than Democracy or Republic means we have carte blanche anyway.

I'm sure we can get the UN if we want, so let's hear what you all have to say. Further, should we be close and get the "nearly finished" message, shall we spend some money to buy the rest of the shields?

 

[duke o' york]

Yes to all the questions. I would like the UN and I'm not at all concerned about spending the cash to get it. How long after you get the "nearly finished" message do the other civs finish their wonders? I've often wondered about this but never paid attention. Oops.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Yes to all the questions. I would like the UN and I'm not at all concerned about spending the cash to get it. How long after you get the "nearly finished" message do the other civs finish their wonders? I've often wondered about this but never paid attention. Oops.

It's been my experience that once you get the message, you have to complete the wonder on your upcoming turn or else you lose out.

Again, if you do complete it, it will be yours to keep.

 

[Leowind]

From the science thread it looks like we'll have electronics very soon, which brings the possibility of Hoover's dam. I think we would probably all agree this is more important than UN, so I would support going after UN ONLY if we know we'll get Hoover's soon thereafter. This would mean tying up our freight production even yet again. Given the negatives that come with UN is it worth tying up all or most of our freight production for the conceivable next several turns? I don't have an answer myself. I'm a bit on the fence on this one.

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Yes to all the questions. I would like the UN and I'm not at all concerned about spending the cash to get it. How long after you get the "nearly finished" message do the other civs finish their wonders? I've often wondered about this but never paid attention. Oops.

They finish the wonder a turn after you get the nearly complete message...

I would like to see us build it as soon as possible because we should be able to build the majority of the remaining wonders anyway. Also it has plenty of benefits and it would be nice to get some info on the Germans.

 

[Zwelgje]

The UN seems nice to me but I prefer the Hoover Dam over UN. If we can continue to build caravans at a high speed without interfering in the production of offensive units and improvements needed in the cities I would say go for both, if I had to choose between UN and HD I say go for HD.

 

[Kev]

Should we complete the UN fairly soon, we should have no trouble getting the rest of the wonders as we'll be the first ones to get the requisite technologies (unless we decide to keep skipping genetic engineering and someone else starts the Cure for Cancer). Although we're near electronics, I have to think the others are further behind (though I think the Romans have begun electricity).

In fact, we could start a second city on the UN right now and switch it over to Hoover when we get electronics. That city could probably complete Hoover on its own without a serious challenge.

Fort Pornstar may be the city to do this. It already has a factory, and with some rail lines through the forests along with some extra growth, it will be a great shield producer. If we start it on the UN and then go to Hoover when we have electronics, it would have a MAJOR head start on any other civ who even thinks about going for it.

Finally, we could build freight at a more leisurely pace - and even start using some for actual trade

 

[Mr Spice]

I am not too fond of the UN since it does not force our enemies to declare peace but only cease-fire. We all know what a pain cease-fires are... Plus, I am usually not very lucky with the senate interference even with the UN present and the embassies are not that big a deal since our spies can establish them for free anyway. I would much rather go for Hoover Dam as soon as it is availible and then rush factories to boost production.

 

[Leowind]

I'd be inclined to say the negative outweigh the positives in getting UN except for point #5 under pros above. This could be a real problem. Although again, if we switched to Commie or Fundy would that negate this effect?

 

[Kev]

OK, guys, there's a bit of a mix here. I think there may have to be a poll.

I can see that Dell, duke, and myself are UN advocates while Mr. Spice is in the negative. Leowind is on the fence but seems to be leaning toward "no" and Civ-1 could go either way. We need to hear from others as well in this.

Let us assume - I think correctly - that we can get the UN and the rest of the wonders available (at least the ones we want - just say "NO" to Manhattan Project). Putting the effort into the UN could delay Hoover Dam a number of turns, but we'll get Hoover for sure. I guarantee it.

I'm good to go wherever with this. I DO like the UN, but will abide by the Democracy nonetheless.

 

[Ren]

Yes! I agree that getting modern wonders is a sinch, so go for the UN. I also agree that we should start UN in Fort Pornstar when production becomes free. Let the Freight building continue!

And Spice, I'm pretty sure the UN makes you/them sign a Peace Treaty too

 

[Zwelgje]

Originally posted by Kev
just say "NO" to Manhattan Project

That's something I very much agree on, nuclear wars can get really nasty and they take away from scoring because of polution.

 

[Mr Spice]

Originally posted by Ren
And Spice, I'm pretty sure the UN makes you/them sign a Peace Treaty too

No, unfortunately not. This is one of the differences between the Great Wall and the UN. You enemies are of course still able to sign peace treaties with you, but they are no required to. The UN only forces them to sign a cease fire and they usually choose not to sign a peace treaty since they still want war.

What normally happens is this: They ask for audience because they want to extort ridicilous amounts of money from you. Cease fire is signed because of the UN and the still-annoying senate interference. They still consider themselves at war with you and continue to send lots of troops into your territory. Because of the cease fire you can neither attack them nor ask them to withdraw their units. 5 turns later they break the cease fire and another round of war starts, until they think it is time to extort you again. Repeat until either they are destroyed or the game is won.

Without the UN you don´t have to put up with enemy units on your territory. Just stay at war with most of your opponets and kill all enemies on sight. If you don´t have the UN, staying at war is actually very easy even for a democracy. All you have to do is refuse to pay the money they insist on demanding from you.

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by civ1-addict

That's something I very much agree on, nuclear wars can get really nasty and they take away from scoring because of polution.

I think that most people here will say no to building it although we could build it late on in the game if we are about to win.

 

[Zwelgje]

Originally posted by Dell19
I think that most people here will say no to building it although we could build it late on in the game if we are about to win.

I only build it when I have already launched the spaceship. You get extra points for each wonder so I want those points and I make sure to build it with only 2 or 3 turns to go before arrival of the spaceship so other civs can't throw a nuke at me.