Understanding settler spawn locations

[dylanmeditates]

This is a question for someone who either understands the code or has just played so many damn games they know the answer:
Regarding the position of the settler at the beginning of the game: I have heard that the program makes starting positions of settlers at least decent city sites, whatever that means.
Does it take into account exactly what will be in the BFC or does it merely scatter resources within two squares of the settler?
What are the algorithm rules regarding amount of trees and/or rivers, food, strategic resources etc?
What is the best way to judge whether you should move the settler or settle in place based on what is in the code/learned from experience?

 

[lymond]

I may be wrong here, but I'll say what I think. Someone like Tachy probably has a better idea of the code behind it.

From my understanding, the map is generated first and the the game determines where to place the settlers. For most standard maps, the game assesses things like food and hills. At least X number of food resources (FPs count in this regard) and at least 3 hills in the BFC. Keep in mind that some maps do not hold to this formula, e.g., Great Plains, Rainforest and Oasis.

As for moving the settler or not. First, I would not make such a determination based on some perceived understanding of the code or resource distribution. Move or don't move your settler based on what you see.

The most important factor in placing a city is food, ofc. Generally SIP is often the best option. I may move the settler after analyzing the tiles and after moving the warrior or scout to reveal more tiles. If I see a better city spot for whatever reason then I might move. I might see:

a) A boosted city center tile that still keeps good food such as a PH tile, PH Marble/Stone, Sugar, Dry Rice or a riverside commerce resource like Wine. Each of these boosts the center tile and gives you an immediate bonus. (Note that with the center tile bonus, it is "what you see is what you get". If you see 2H on the tile, you will get 2H.)

b) More riverside tiles that may make for a better Bureau cap

c) With an abundance of food, I may want to split that up between cities

d) Either reduce or increase the amount of FPs in a city depending on the distribution. Too many FPs can be quite unhealthy.

e) I simply see that settling elsewhere makes for a better long term city.

As a rule, what I will not do is move the settler, especially losing a turn or so, without some tangible benefit that I can see. I will also generally not move the settler blindly...the exception being mainly to move for a center tile bonus but seeing that I at least maintain good tiles and resources that I can see currently.

Generally though, until you better understand map reading and what is good for a starting capital, you can't go wrong with SIP.

What is the best way to judge whether you should move the settler or settle in place based on what is in the code/learned from experience?

Yeah, as I alluded to above, in terms of where to settle, go by experience not code.

Again, another post better suited to S&T. You really should spend more time there.

 

[dylanmeditates]

With an abundance of food, I may want to split that up between cities

Again, another post better suited to S&T. You really should spend more time there.

Interesting you say you will split up lots of food between two cities... whenever I see lots of food, I'm thinking great library GS pump>liberalism, keeping all the food for the capital. But you think spreading the food around could be beneficial, I'm guessing for just a more general approach for any appropriate victory condition? I will keep that in mind.

regarding putting this in S&T... yeah I have been posting in there so often lately I was thinking maybe I finally had one appropriate for general discussion given the slightly technical nature of the post. But I've been wrong before

thanks for your ideas

 

[vincentz]

The map will place random settlerpositions. but no closer to each other than <DefineName>MIN_CIV_STARTING_DISTANCE</DefineName> (GlobalDefines.xml)
Then it will change "unwanted" stuff (negative modifiers such as jungle, but if you added f.ex. 2 food to jungle feature it will spam jungle even on northern/southern "tundra" starts.
The reason why it spams jungle is that is will try to balance the starting position, and it will also look at resources to balance it. In resources (CIV4BonusInfos.xml) there is a tag (<bNormalize>) that checks to see if that resource can be used to even out bad starting locations (that is why there is usually lots of ocean resources on starts with lots of water).
From there it will try to place strategic resources "around" the spawns. (<iPlacementOrder>), then other resources, but to a approx max of % of <iPlayer> /civ but no more than this <iTilesPer> per number of tiles and no closer than this tiles to eachother <iUnique>.
Unless... it has a <iGroupRand> modifier, in which case it will check for <Rands> and place them no closer to each other than <iGroupRange> (this is usually for those jungle luxury resources that is found in clutters).

Hope it answers your question

 

[Willem]

The map will place random settlerpositions. but no closer to each other than <DefineName>MIN_CIV_STARTING_DISTANCE</DefineName> (GlobalDefines.xml)

In theory yes, but there seems to be a limit as to how far apart you can place them. I have mine set to 20, but there's no way the civs start that far apart from each other. I've never seen much of a difference past 15 or so, and even then it quite often goes under, like say 12 or 13 tiles. I've tried a number of values and had a look at the placement in World builder and I find very little difference past a certain point.

In resources (CIV4BonusInfos.xml) there is a tag (<bNormalize>) that checks to see if that resource can be used to even out bad starting locations (that is why there is usually lots of ocean resources on starts with lots of water).

I wasn't aware of that, it's a good thing to know. I presume a value of 1 allows the resource to be used that way? I've always wondered what that setting did.

 

[vincentz]

In theory yes, but there seems to be a limit as to how far apart you can place them. I have mine set to 20, but there's no way the civs start that far apart from each other. I've never seen much of a difference past 15 or so, and even then it quite often goes under, like say 12 or 13 tiles. I've tried a number of values and had a look at the placement in World builder and I find very little difference past a certain point.



I wasn't aware of that, it's a good thing to know. I presume a value of 1 allows the resource to be used that way? I've always wondered what that setting did.

I guess if f.ex. its a small map with 10 civs on it, it would be impossible to place every civ 10 spaces from eachother, or it have to do a "second" pas. Donno, didnt check the actual code, and not even sure it uses it at all (some of the GlobalDefines seem to be leftovers from civ III (?)) Did you try to put only 2 civs on a normal map f.ex?

And yes, 1 makes it usable to even things out. Afaik it overrides all other settings in regard to resource placements (at least the unique but prolly also the iplayer and itilesper).

 

[lymond]

regarding putting this in S&T... yeah I have been posting in there so often lately I was thinking maybe I finally had one appropriate for general discussion given the slightly technical nature of the post. But I've been wrong before

yeah, your post probably falls in a gray area between the 2 forums but veered more towards S&T-ish near the end.

 

[dylanmeditates]

The map will place random settlerpositions. but no closer to each other than <DefineName>MIN_CIV_STARTING_DISTANCE</DefineName> (GlobalDefines.xml)
Then it will change "unwanted" stuff (negative modifiers such as jungle, but if you added f.ex. 2 food to jungle feature it will spam jungle even on northern/southern "tundra" starts.
The reason why it spams jungle is that is will try to balance the starting position, and it will also look at resources to balance it. In resources (CIV4BonusInfos.xml) there is a tag (<bNormalize>) that checks to see if that resource can be used to even out bad starting locations (that is why there is usually lots of ocean resources on starts with lots of water).
From there it will try to place strategic resources "around" the spawns. (<iPlacementOrder>), then other resources, but to a approx max of % of <iPlayer> /civ but no more than this <iTilesPer> per number of tiles and no closer than this tiles to eachother <iUnique>.
Unless... it has a <iGroupRand> modifier, in which case it will check for <Rands> and place them no closer to each other than <iGroupRange> (this is usually for those jungle luxury resources that is found in clutters).

Just to clarify, it goes:
1. map is generated
2. settler positions are placed randomly
3. starting locations are modified to 'normalize' the starting positions (am I saying that correctly?)

first question: does this imply that some settler locations are not going to be changed at all while others will be changed a lot? This would imply that some starts are way better than others depending more on surrounding land than on starting BFC land, if you start way tucked into lots of plains tiles and close to ice or something, even if the location gets added food or whatevs, the surrounding tiles will still be shite for a second city. just making sure i understand this correctly.

second question: Do all the normalizing changes occur strictly within the BFC or merely close by the settler? lymond mentioned that there must be at least 3 hills within BFC, do all the other changes happen strictly within BFC?

third question: FPs count as food resources? Then I would expect not to get more food resources in my BFC if I see lots of FP around, yeah?

fourth question: what's a PH tile? not seeing it on the acronyms list

this forum is awesome... started on noble 2 years ago, won my first emperor game last night.

 

[lymond]

PH= Plains Hill (it's base tile yield is 2H, so if you settle on it the city will have 2H instead of the usual 1H, so you get a little extra production from the start)

I think FPs count as 1/2 food resource, so yeah it is not out of the realm of possibility to have a start with FPs and no other full food resources.

Before I found this forum several years ago, my Civ play was beyond comical Workers? I don't need no stinkin' workers!

 

[Willem]

I guess if f.ex. its a small map with 10 civs on it, it would be impossible to place every civ 10 spaces from eachother, or it have to do a "second" pas.

Well yes, there is a limit as to how far you can force the spacing, otherwise a civ would have to start in the ocean in order to comply. But in my tests I'd see that there would plenty of space for the civs to spread out start in, yet the game only placed them a certain distance from each other. There seems to be a maximum distance where those values apply and you can't force them apart any further than that. I'm not sure what that distance is but it seems be somewhere between 10 and 15. I believe the default is 10, so there's no much leeway in that setting.

Donno, didnt check the actual code, and not even sure it uses it at all (some of the GlobalDefines seem to be leftovers from civ III (?)) Did you try to put only 2 civs on a normal map f.ex?

It does work to a certain extent, I managed to get the spacing wider than in the default game at least, but not really by all that much. I play on Huge maps and I like having games where every civ has plenty of room to develop in and I spent quite a bit of time trying to get the spacing set up right, even going so far as to make the Huge map slightly larger. But I've never really gotten it to work the way I would have liked. I still end up with games where I feel a neighbour is too close to me.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I have been moving my settler more lately if my original location is mediocre. I move him to the coast if that looks reasonable, or up the river farther to open settlement space behind me. Sacrificing one turn is worth it whenever you can see that it will make your capital city stronger.