Underwater Cities Development

So your argument is valid if you prescribe to a theory that states that our consciousness is a part of and bound by the physics of the reality we exist in and that we are little more than what we now dub AI's. But given that I feel reality itself is much more fluid and manipulable with belief alone, I will continue to believe that what is more logical is that time travel exists on the basis of all reality being limitless potential. My one most foundational belief is: Nothing is impossible. If we imagine it, it can happen, no matter how odd or weird or strange that imagination may be. Outside of the constrictive 'rules' of life that we've established for ourselves, we exist in a realm of all possibility - and in my view, the reality is, even the game of solid reality we seem to play is merely constricted by our choice to accept it as such. Thus, if WE choose to accept that time travel may exist, then it does. If not, it does not.

Therefore the question is not 'can it exist', the question is 'how to we unlock it for our use and what value would it have for us if we do?'

What is your take on the Tao of Physics?
 
... but I will not contribute unless a way can be found to avoid complicating the game further than it already is.

As much as I love the depth of this mod, as things stand, this mod is too complicated for me to enjoy for any serious length of time. Turns take too long; I spend far too much time deciding and selecting what I want to build in a city rather than planning how to take my enemies over and carrying those plans out; and it takes forever for game progression to occur. I refuse to participate in adding another delay to my turns that requires my intervention.

Before I comment, a brief disclaimer. I am not a developer on this mod. I have not (yet) contributed to it in any major way. So I really don't have any authority. That said, I don't think that I'll be out of line.

From what I've seen, both through playing and reading the forums here, one of the major guiding principles (if not the primary one) is that 'more is better'. Thus it stands to reason that the mod will continue to get more complicated over time. Demanding that you will only contribute if all progression of complications ends suddenly is just unrealistic. If you honestly think that this mod is too complicated as it is, then this probably isn't the right mod for you. Most of us here, myself included, like the level of complication. It means there's more to think about than just 'build string of units, conquer world'.

I'm not intending to be mean or insulting here, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm just pointing out that this mod is all about being complicated, and the progression of that is not likely to end any time soon. At least, I hope it doesn't. If that's not your cup of tea, so to speak, that's fine. Not every mod will appeal to every user.
 
So your argument is valid if you prescribe to a theory that states that our consciousness is a part of and bound by the physics of the reality we exist in and that we are little more than what we now dub AI's. But given that I feel reality itself is much more fluid and manipulable with belief alone, I will continue to believe that what is more logical is that time travel exists on the basis of all reality being limitless potential. My one most foundational belief is: Nothing is impossible. If we imagine it, it can happen, no matter how odd or weird or strange that imagination may be. Outside of the constrictive 'rules' of life that we've established for ourselves, we exist in a realm of all possibility - and in my view, the reality is, even the game of solid reality we seem to play is merely constricted by our choice to accept it as such. Thus, if WE choose to accept that time travel may exist, then it does. If not, it does not.

Therefore the question is not 'can it exist', the question is 'how to we unlock it for our use and what value would it have for us if we do?'

What is your take on the Tao of Physics?

LOL. Another fun conversation!

No, that isn't the only situation in which my argument is valid. I will explain one more of several situations in which my argument could be valid.

I don't buy that consciousness is a physical phenomena as we define "physics." I don't believe that "matter" as we define it is all that exists. And now physics is finally catching up to that possibility with the "discovery" of "dark matter" and the belief in "dark energy."

I personally believe that all constituents of reality are ultimately timeless; that what exists has always existed and will always exist; This is also known as being "self existent."

Time travel is not possible because it contradicts self-existence; it means that you can create something out of nothing; it means you can create or destroy something that is self-existent which contradicts the meaning of self-existent. Another way to look at it is to say that you can move something that is anchored outside of time (has an existence independent of time) through time. Again this is self-contradictory.

Even if my beliefs go beyond the scope of science, they can (and are by scientists) still be applied to matter and energy as we know it. I think it is ironic that science itself has laws that when ultimately truly understood (and believed), negate the possibility of time travel. These are known as the laws of conservation.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form" and...
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form".

As Einstein discovered, these statements are equivalent since matter is a a form of energy.

If matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it cannot move through time because it is, by the laws of conservation, self existent. To move matter into the past would be the same as creating matter. For the particles or constituents of matter would exist both as the original, and the new duplicate that has now joined it's antecedent self in the past.

So what about the future? We still essentially have the same problem. If we move something into the future, we violate self-existence; we are removing something that is anchored in existence itself (which is timeless) out of existence.

If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct.

In a sense I agree with the statement that "anything is possible." However, I would add one stipulation: "anything that isn't self contradictory is possible." Otherwise an omnipotent being would be able to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it.
 
I'm not able to wrap my head around the concept that we are somehow creating or destroying matter/energy by moving it forward or backwards in time. There really is no constant value to an infinite is there?

I can agree with some of your statements and its nice to see more agreement in this than disagreement. But why is it so impossible to consider that there are infinite layers of overlapping timestreams? Without such a concept in play, indeed there are serious logic flaws with 99% of timetravel theories.

I think part of the argument you are presenting really hinges on a paradigm that revolves around the infinitely debateable reality as Objective vs reality as Perspective.

In some ways, you are right that for the one who moves in time (which we all do at a fairly steady pace that SEEMS to travel along a constant due to our ability to measure it in an objective manner), they are self constant and their experience of the motion of time through a time portal would be completely relative to them, but for the more 'objective' timestream, there's nothing to say it could not be done.

The argument that "If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct" does not apply because to move something is not to create it nor destroy it. You are locking onto creation and destruction as being only within the span of the timeframe we are currently in, and in this case, sure, why shouldn't it be possible to create or destroy utilizing time-portation?

(Besides that, even general 'rules' of physics are laws that perhaps may not 'naturally' be defied but why could they not be defied with the application of technology or powerful belief?)

Do you have equal objection to Teleportation as a general whole then?

And just because some alternative ways of explaining Tachyon motion have been floated and are equally as rational does not discount the possibility that the original theories regarding their anomalous measurements could yet be correct. Once more, the belief of the observer at that sort of level does note-worthily adjust the actual measurable results of subatomic study.



Oh, and on the other subject... I'd like to see how much time it actually adds to move from one map to another before making up my mind as to that argument. You do make some very valid points about avoiding further delays but lets not overlook the awesome potential for immersive play on the flip side of the coin. I've always agreed that C2C needs more tactical work too such that this core element of play is just as detailed as the rest of the mod... thus the Combat Mod being such a high priority for me.

And its going to always be true that C2C is not for the impatient. But don't let the comments of the others badger your freedom to express your opinions here - I've always appreciated the input even if we're not always in agreement, and I really appreciate the tasks you've taken on for us!
 
Before I comment, a brief disclaimer. I am not a developer on this mod. I have not (yet) contributed to it in any major way. So I really don't have any authority. That said, I don't think that I'll be out of line.

From what I've seen, both through playing and reading the forums here, one of the major guiding principles (if not the primary one) is that 'more is better'. Thus it stands to reason that the mod will continue to get more complicated over time. Demanding that you will only contribute if all progression of complications ends suddenly is just unrealistic. If you honestly think that this mod is too complicated as it is, then this probably isn't the right mod for you. Most of us here, myself included, like the level of complication. It means there's more to think about than just 'build string of units, conquer world'.

I'm not intending to be mean or insulting here, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm just pointing out that this mod is all about being complicated, and the progression of that is not likely to end any time soon. At least, I hope it doesn't. If that's not your cup of tea, so to speak, that's fine. Not every mod will appeal to every user.

I am not offended at all by possibility you suggest but I am a little pissed at the ingratitude. I started this thread as an offer to help.

I have considered the possibility you mention and you may be right. However, I am of the belief that just because something is more complicated doesn't mean something can't be done to alleviate the complication. Build lists for example help with alleviating the nuisance of picking out the correct building each time. Problem is that they don't work. Alleviating complication is what I am asking for here. I never said that Hydro couldn't develop his underground view if he wanted too. I only pointed out that I considered it impractical and I am just asking that we develop a way around it.

And as far as me being unrealistic? If I must, I will show you how very realistic it is and request that this thread be locked, withdraw my offer to help, and forget the whole thing. Call me some choice words if you want to but the fact is that this is my time being wasted.

I also think that IF you ever get multi-maps to work, you will finally discover who is being unrealistic. Any computer that has less than 3GB of memory will not run more than 2-3 maps. This program as it stands already takes more than 0.5 GB of memory with a single, huge map.
 
I'm not able to wrap my head around the concept that we are somehow creating or destroying matter/energy by moving it forward or backwards in time. There really is no constant value to an infinite is there?

That is why I included the second example of something anchored outside of time. If you don't follow that either, it is hard to explain. I can try again though if need be.

?? Infinity is not a value, it is an idea. What are you asking here?

I can agree with some of your statements and its nice to see more agreement in this than disagreement. But why is it so impossible to consider that there are infinite layers of overlapping timestreams? Without such a concept in play, indeed there are serious logic flaws with 99% of timetravel theories.

I don't believe it is impossible. In a manner of speaking I agree with you; but those "overlapping timestreams" are confined to specific dimensions in which something can change. Think string theory. Something that is eternal (self-existent; exists independently of time) such as a string in string theory cannot literally move through time because time is only an aspect of the string's existence that occurs because of the string's ability to "vibrate" (i.e. change).

I think part of the argument you are presenting really hinges on a paradigm that revolves around the infinitely debateable reality as Objective vs reality as Perspective.

LOL. Not really. The funny thing is that in a sense, we are talking from the same perspective. I believe that perspective is at least as basic to reality as it's "objective" qualities. The only difference is that I believe in both.

In some ways, you are right that for the one who moves in time (which we all do at a fairly steady pace that SEEMS to travel along a constant due to our ability to measure it in an objective manner), they are self constant and their experience of the motion of time through a time portal would be completely relative to them, but for the more 'objective' timestream, there's nothing to say it could not be done.

Unfortunately, time doesn't move along at a steady pace. Einstein predicted and we have actually observed that time actually changes the rate at which it ticks (moves differently) depending on the speed of the object and the amount of gravity (matter) in it's vicinity. This is one reason why Einstein concluded that space and time are actually inseparable as dimensions.

The argument that "If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct" does not apply because to move something is not to create it nor destroy it. You are locking onto creation and destruction as being only within the span of the timeframe we are currently in, and in this case, sure, why shouldn't it be possible to create or destroy utilizing time-portation?

Yes it does apply. And your model proves it. The "problem" here is that you are viewing time as a dimension that is separable from space. You are also assuming that existence is subservient to time. If that were true, then you would be right and so would I. If existence were subservient to time (in other words, if existence were an aspect of time), then matter could be created and destroyed. It could wink (technically vibrate) in and out of existence. And since time is the ultimate substrate of reality, it could be moved through.

However, if time is an aspect of existence (specifically an object's existence), then something that self-exists independent of time can only experience time as an aspect of reality. Moving through time at will is impossible because ultimately, the object exists independent of time. It is the same thing as believing that an object can be in two places at once.

(Besides that, even general 'rules' of physics are laws that perhaps may not 'naturally' be defied but why could they not be defied with the application of technology or powerful belief?)

Because technology and belief will never be able to do something that is self-contradictory.

Do you have equal objection to Teleportation as a general whole then?

That depends on... the nature of what is being "teleported." The short answer is no. However I do not believe that teleportation is possible without involving other aspects of reality that are not considered part of understood science.

To give a specific example: it has been experimentally observed that two photons which are "entangled" at the quantum level will affect each other simultaneously regardless of the space (distance) that exists between them. If a quantum change occurs in one, the other will experience the same change simultaneously. There is no ordinary explanation for this except that the two photons are connected in some way that cannot be measured using dimensions that we currently have access too within the bounds of understood science. Apparently, their is something about energy that is not bound by space itself. Therefore, I can conclude that it may be possible to connect two points in space through means (or dimensions) that science cannot currently access. However, I do not believe that something can simply disappear from one point in space and suddenly appear in another point in space without something that connects those two points. That would also violate self-existence.

And just because some alternative ways of explaining Tachyon motion have been floated and are equally as rational does not discount the possibility that the original theories regarding their anomalous measurements could yet be correct. Once more, the belief of the observer at that sort of level does note-worthily adjust the actual measurable results of subatomic study.

Again, please do not speak of tachyons as though they exist. They are theoretical particles only. And those theories have problems.

And its going to always be true that C2C is not for the impatient. But don't let the comments of the others badger your freedom to express your opinions here - I've always appreciated the input even if we're not always in agreement, and I really appreciate the tasks you've taken on for us!

LOL. Well said. On that note... I wish we had a sub forum here for off topic discussion. I love philosophising like this. It is always interesting. However, we should probably be careful not to stray too far.
 
I think it is ironic that science itself has laws that when ultimately truly understood (and believed), negate the possibility of time travel. These are known as the laws of conservation.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form" and...
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form".

As Einstein discovered, these statements are equivalent since matter is a a form of energy.

Uh, but didn't Einstein's discovery replace the laws of conservation with the unified law of conservation of mass-energy? Just being picky here.

Anyhow, this mod doesn't really need to stick to what is known - I can guarantee you that much of what is known will be proven wrong in the next century.


On the multi-map thing, surely that's going to be something that can be turned off. Because, honestly, many computers won't be able to handle it. Or even pretend to. So it's a moot point, as those who like it (and whose computers can handle it) will use it, and everyone else will not.
 
Uh, but didn't Einstein's discovery replace the laws of conservation with the unified law of conservation of mass-energy? Just being picky here.

Anyhow, this mod doesn't really need to stick to what is known - I can guarantee you that much of what is known will be proven wrong in the next century.


On the multi-map thing, surely that's going to be something that can be turned off. Because, honestly, many computers won't be able to handle it. Or even pretend to. So it's a moot point, as those who like it (and whose computers can handle it) will use it, and everyone else will not.

That depends on how you look at it. He didn't really replace the laws, he just showed that they were equivalent (which I said earlier). Basically that means that the laws are saying the same thing.

As far as multi-maps go... yes. I agree with you. But if the undersea stuff is restricted to multi-maps, people who don't want to use multi-maps won't be able to have them. My point is that we should work around that restriction.

To be entirely forthcoming, here is how I think underwater cities should be done:

I think we should add undersea cities in a way that makes it so that the user has access to them on the the main map but they are not drawn to their fullest extent. Not sure if that is possible... but in the main map the protective dome should not be drawn. That way, at least most of the buildings will appear to be under water. It may help to redo the ocean height maps a little lower than they currently are.

In the underwater map, the cities can be drawn with their protective dome since the ocean surface isn't really part of the drawing.
 
To be entirely forthcoming, here is how I think underwater cities should be done:

I think we should add undersea cities in a way that makes it so that the user has access to them on the the main map but they are not drawn to their fullest extent. Not sure if that is possible... but in the main map the protective dome should not be drawn. That way, at least most of the buildings will appear to be under water. It may help to redo the ocean height maps a little lower than they currently are.

In the underwater map, the cities can be drawn with their protective dome since the ocean surface isn't really part of the drawing.

I like that.
While I think underwater Maps would be cool if they had a little bit diversity, I really won't like to switch between maps when I send my units through a tunnel. I would propose that you have 2 features on a tiles: a tunnel and a normal road (or nothing) so that you can command your units in tunnels on the normal map. Only if you get the code right that units on the surface and in the underground can't interact.
 
I wonder if we could enable 'dual existence' for units on some maps. I've been pondering some of what you just suggested too and it all boils down to what will be necessary to make play more enjoyable overall.


What I was saying about Infinity... you seem to believe there is a constant mass to the universe? How can you establish a number, to represent such a constant, when the universe is infinite?

I believe you may be right about some of my basic presumptions. Without time, nothing may have a definition at all. Even a picture has an amount of time it had exposure to take the image. If there were no exposure time, you'd have no picture.

I see time as being somewhat separable from space but connected as well. I believe that the connection is exactly what rationalizes one possible means of time travel itself. Move faster than the speed of light and you move backwards through time because you end up entering into a vibratory state that hits an i number (imaginary so to speak) and is thus moving in negative proportion to the (majority of the) rest of existence.

Without continuing to debate endlessly on the topic, shouldn't we, as Humans, not be asking if something is impossible, but rather assuming that it is and we simply need to figure out how to do it? If we find it is in fact impossible then dang that sucks but then again we may well not have all the data either and be giving up on a concept because we don't see the full picture. I admit I don't know ALL the physics knowledge that we've obtained through the last few decades in particular, but nevertheless, everything we think we know is, as LeftBower points out, subject to change. Therefore, the FIRST thing we must admit is that for all our arguments, we don't know the truth yet. In such an admittable vacuum of proof, I don't understand why anyone would feel comfortable embracing a theory about time travel that states it cannot exist!

In fact, archaeology, I believe, has given us some ample evidence that it does, that there have been beings on Earth whom have been utilizing the technology and have left massively enduring structures designed to aid them in determining wherever they may BE in time whenever they visit. But perhaps that's a conversation for another thread entirely ;)
 
I do not really understand what people are arguing about. Primeover has the genetic era ready just needing to merge. If people want more to the water is not like you can not make more changes afterwords. Multiple maps it seems is still a big if they can be done. And know I am not modding, so it is not like I have any real input. I am just saying from experience start simple. Then work you way up to more complex if that is what you want.
 
To be entirely forthcoming, here is how I think underwater cities should be done:

I think we should add undersea cities in a way that makes it so that the user has access to them on the the main map but they are not drawn to their fullest extent. Not sure if that is possible... but in the main map the protective dome should not be drawn. That way, at least most of the buildings will appear to be under water. It may help to redo the ocean height maps a little lower than they currently are.

In the underwater map, the cities can be drawn with their protective dome since the ocean surface isn't really part of the drawing.

This is the best idea I've heard on this subject in a while. :goodjob: I just hope I can convince the rest of the team.
I do not really understand what people are arguing about. Primeover has the genetic era ready just needing to merge. If people want more to the water is not like you can not make more changes afterwords. Multiple maps it seems is still a big if they can be done. And know I am not modding, so it is not like I have any real input. I am just saying from experience start simple. Then work you way up to more complex if that is what you want.

Agreed. This thread has become both an unnecessary argument over minutae and also quite offtopic with theoretical physics (which I'm fine discussing but preferably in the Galactic Era thread).
 
I do not really understand what people are arguing about. Primeover has the genetic era ready just needing to merge. If people want more to the water is not like you can not make more changes afterwords. Multiple maps it seems is still a big if they can be done. And know I am not modding, so it is not like I have any real input. I am just saying from experience start simple. Then work you way up to more complex if that is what you want.

But it sounded like once he put it in he would not let anyone change it.
 
Gentlemen (and ladies hopefully as well),

We need to stay open to expanding our vision when the right argument comes along, I think that when something is controversial, you should put the breaks on committing to a direction, and use that opportunity as a potential breakthrough. Good discussion can uncover flaws, and improve the solution. At some point you have to make a right-now solution so you can keep movement, but you shouldn't bury any disagreement, because most disagreements can be overcome or yield insight; they can be productively valuable. Like mistakes you learn how to deal with them and grow. You can't figure out something new, by only agreeing with your own existing opinion. Not to say that the idea can't be off, but one way or another, you can find value in the relationship.
The goal is to let everyone's vision build on each other, so we can help each other be free to do our best work! Let's let our best parts stand out, instead of compromising to mediocrity. There are usually good reasons people feel strongly. Pull them out and you might find common ground that is more optimal. Or even a better solution that no one would have considered without the ongoing discussion. Better this way. The goal is to find a way to create the best game possible. Let productive discussion uncover the better answers.

Individual vision should lift us up, not drag us down. Individuals can move faster than the group, and the group can multiply what one individual can do. You need enough of both to keep things moving. Figuring out how is the challenge. Realizing that you are better off that way is a process. Keeping it from slowing down and allowing it to continually improve is the goal.
 
I wonder if we could enable 'dual existence' for units on some maps. I've been pondering some of what you just suggested too and it all boils down to what will be necessary to make play more enjoyable overall.

I believe it is possible. I will check. If what determines the city a unit is in is a list of pointers or references to existing units within the city data structure then yes it is possible. If not, we could replace the current method with such a list.

What I was saying about Infinity... you seem to believe there is a constant mass to the universe? How can you establish a number, to represent such a constant, when the universe is infinite?

Yes. I believe the universe as we understand it has a constant, non-infinite mass. The universal gravitational constant strongly suggests that this is the case. Conventional scientists do not believe in the existence of what are termed "actual infinities" (an infinite number applied to real physical objects). As the matter of fact, most religious philosophers do not believe in actual infinities either with the exception of God. Several religious philosophers have used arguments against an actual infinity as an attempt to debunk Mormonism since Mormon theology makes several statements about the existence of actual infinities.

The universe may very well not be infinite in terms of "space." Some current theories suggest that the universe has an edge. Other's believe that in terms of spacetime it has a finite shape that allows continual movement in a single direction. Think of a sphere or a mobius strip.

I believe it was Einstein who believed that the "infinity" of the universe wasn't truly an infinity; that if you were to travel the entire length of the universe, you would eventually find yourself back where you started. An interesting idea...

Even though I believe that the "universe" constists of a constant mass, I do not necessarily believe that everything is finite. I believe it is possible that existence itself is infinite. Do I believe in an actual infinity? I suppose in principle I do. But I do not believe it is possible for a single universe to contain infinity.

I believe you may be right about some of my basic presumptions. Without time, nothing may have a definition at all. Even a picture has an amount of time it had exposure to take the image. If there were no exposure time, you'd have no picture.

I see time as being somewhat separable from space but connected as well. I believe that the connection is exactly what rationalizes one possible means of time travel itself. Move faster than the speed of light and you move backwards through time because you end up entering into a vibratory state that hits an i number (imaginary so to speak) and is thus moving in negative proportion to the (majority of the) rest of existence.

Without continuing to debate endlessly on the topic, shouldn't we, as Humans, not be asking if something is impossible, but rather assuming that it is and we simply need to figure out how to do it? If we find it is in fact impossible then dang that sucks but then again we may well not have all the data either and be giving up on a concept because we don't see the full picture. I admit I don't know ALL the physics knowledge that we've obtained through the last few decades in particular, but nevertheless, everything we think we know is, as LeftBower points out, subject to change. Therefore, the FIRST thing we must admit is that for all our arguments, we don't know the truth yet. In such an admittable vacuum of proof, I don't understand why anyone would feel comfortable embracing a theory about time travel that states it cannot exist!

Pretty much how I predicted you saw things. And you are not alone. But my point (the way I see it) is that each photon (energy) that was absorbed by the photographic paper and then transformed into a different type of (chemical) energy through the chemical reaction on the paper in your example still exists at a singe point in spacetime. Each quanta of energy has a mono (single) existence; it will always exist at a single "somewhere" that necessitates a "somewhen" because the "when" is simply a result of its ability to change position.

The reason I do not believe in time travel is because my assumptions negate it as internally contradictory. And as I said before, any contradiction is necessarily impossible. For example, assuming P is always true, then not P is necessarily always false. Not P can never be true. In principle, this is similar to my view of existence.

Assuming time is subservient to self-existence (which I reason must be so below), then an object cannot move to the past or future because to do so would cause moments in which it does not exist, and/or moments in which it has a dual existence (it is in two places at once). I know you see this as just "moving" through time but if something is self-existent then it is anchored outside of time and moving through time by necessity would result in the contradiction of being in two places at once OR not existing for a section (period) of spacetime at all which is contradictory to being self-existent.

The reason I believe that things must self-exist is because the way I see it, creating something out of nothing is self-contraditory. If something exists then it (or at least it's constintuents) must have always existed in one form or another. To me this suggests/implies that it exists independent of time. Experiments with entangled photons are indirect evidence of this independence of time in my opinion since two photons separated by an indefinite amount of space will simultaneously affect one another no matter how large that distance is.

In fact, archaeology, I believe, has given us some ample evidence that it does, that there have been beings on Earth whom have been utilizing the technology and have left massively enduring structures designed to aid them in determining wherever they may BE in time whenever they visit. But perhaps that's a conversation for another thread entirely ;)

LOL. Archaeology is not evidence of this at all. In fact, it can easily be interpreted to mean almost the opposite. These massively enduring structures are meant to be monuments. Some may have been territorial markers. We have our own massively enduring structures and they certainly were not built to tell us when we visit another time what age it currently is. The Lincoln memorial comes to mind. And we have thousands of objects made of stone that could easily survive for tens to hundreds of thousands of years.
In fact, such an ability to endure is evidence that they were not built to tell time. Things that change very little make it more difficult to determine their age. If they were so advanced to be able to do what you suggest, the simplest way to create an accurate time marker would be to get a very large radioactive sample (restricted to alpha or beta emission to avoid harming surrounding life) with a medium range half life and embed it in one of these large structures. Potassium-40 would be ideal since potassium is common and it has a half life of 1.3 billion years; a good mid-range period of time. If fine time resolutions were necessary, then Uranium-234 with its 80,000 year half life would be useful though Uranium is considerably more rare. To my knowledge no such artificial specimen has ever been found.
 
Could we please get back on topic here? Otherwise I'll have to PM a moderator about this and get the OT stuff moved.

That's fine. I would love to continue my discussion with TB in whatever forum/thread you feel appropriate. Though I would prefer it be a sub-topic of the C2C forum since this is where we congregate.
 
But it sounded like once he put it in he would not let anyone change it.

Actually... now that I think about it, you may have gotten this impression from my resistance to your ideas about underground and floating cities. However, this is incorrect. I was simply opposing those two types of cities. I was not apposing the multi-map itself. I only wanted to say that if your reason for the multi-map was to enable these other types as well, it would be a waste since independent underground and floating cities are an impractical human endeavor that would only be done in extreme circumstances.

However, I believe that the underground view would greatly enhance underwater features since they would allow us to include new topography that would not be available until the technology exists to see it. Examples include mid ocean ridges (an altered river graphic), mid-ocean mountain ranges, seamounts, and possibly continental shelves.
 
I am not sure where you got that idea. Since near the beginning of this thread I have tried suggesting that we should allow both. My explicit statement a few posts ago is just a specific plan on how to do what is suggested in this post (also linked above).

This is what made me think you would not.

And to be blunt: I would not play such a game. C2C is already on the verge of being overloaded with too many details IMO. This also applies to underground cities built in the event that the surface becomes uninhabitable. Again you are talking of exceptional scenarios.

If when multi-views get implemented, making an underground view for such extreme scenarios floats the boats of certain people, then make a modmod.

I am going to reiterate my position here: I am willing to have an underground view be part of ocean gameplay if its use can be avoided for regular tasks; In other words it should not be necessary to access in order to issue orders to units for moving to or through the ocean using tunnels. I am not willing to play the game otherwise.

As far as graphics are concerned, yes... they bother me as well. Hopefully we can have a simplified look for underwater cities in the ocean for the main map that will keep them from looking like they are floating. The more extravagant, detailed view can be reserved for the underwater multi map view. Another way to address this issue is to have the player decide whether ocean cities should be floating or underwater.

In other words if you apply your underwater cities you would not be opposed to us tweaking things right? Such as ...

- Change the name to Floating city.
- Connecting via bridges instead of tunnels.
- Having it allowed without methane restrictions.

The way it made it sound is if we did these you would not work on them and/or stop playing C2C.
 
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