Undocumented Features need to be Documented

[Corlis]

I psent the past 2 nights working on the civ info mouseover. I think it adds some nice stuff.

Huh, I never knew that the Calabim couldn't build gunpowder units or Alchemy Labs. Maybe I should play them to the end of the game for once?

 

[Diamondeye]

Huh, I never knew that the Calabim couldn't build gunpowder units or Alchemy Labs. Maybe I should play them to the end of the game for once?

The game ends with Vampire Lords, or you're in deep trouble

 

[Broken Hawk]

I psent the past 2 nights working on the civ info mouseover. I think it adds some nice stuff.

That will be really helpful. Know your enemy.

 

[Jabie]

another welcome addition would be the improved Dawn of Man screen from FF and Orbis.

The GPP bar would be pretty handy too, though I've no idea whether that's a simple task or something far more convaluted.

 

[Emptiness]

I'd rather not see the main screen cluttered up with more information - especially information that is one mouse-click or keystroke away.

 

[deanej]

Me too. That's why I don't like BUG - it's way too cluttered.

Could civ traits get listed in the pedia as well?

 

[Kael]

Me too. That's why I don't like BUG - it's way too cluttered.

Thats my opinion too. For some people the more information the better, but I really think that it ends up burying the critical information. There isn't a "right" answer here. Different people prefer different things, but Im with you on this.

Could civ traits get listed in the pedia as well?

Yeah, I was thinking about a creative way to do that. I think Im going to add a "Special Abilities" section on the end of that that gives a brief description of the civs special abilities.

 

[Maniac]

This is a native Civ4 thing. Its possible in that game to have bonuses revealed and usable with different techs too. But it does cause weapon confusion form people that dont understand how it works. I will see if I can clarify.

Incense enabled by Philosophy can be a source of confusion as well.

Planetfall has added a widget for techs enabling resources.

 

[Grey Fox]

The thing with BUG though is it's extensive options screen, EVERYTHING can be turned off or tweaked.

I really like it with the BULL mod too (stable beta out), has lots I was planning to add myself.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Thats my opinion too. For some people the more information the better, but I really think that it ends up burying the critical information. There isn't a "right" answer here. Different people prefer different things, but Im with you on this.

I imagine that the best of both worlds is quite possble. The Bug Mod could certainly be made to start out initially just like regular FFH, however if the button combination (Ctrl+Alt+O) were pressed, users could customize their own game.

Everyone would win. People who don't like starting out with BUG information would not get it, and people who liked BUG stuff could activate it, and add in the extra stuff they wanted.

 

[GIR]

Thats my opinion too. For some people the more information the better, but I really think that it ends up burying the critical information. There isn't a "right" answer here. Different people prefer different things, but Im with you on this.

i disagree because bug can be used so that nothing will be canged at all.
and if someone want u can use strg+alt+o (just a matter of how u predefine the conditions).

but the merge is not so important now because of the wild mana mod - and i hope the ff modmod will add the wild mana mod as well in the future so i dont really care...

 

[Kael]

Everyone would win. People who don't like starting out with BUG information would not get it, and people who liked BUG stuff could activate it, and add in the extra stuff they wanted.

Everyone except the guy who has to merge and support it.

This is the typical argument for adding all options. It adds complexity, lowers performance, and is a lot of work to implement, all for features that aren't valuable (in my opinion, though I completely understand why others think differently).

The hard part of design is making decisions, what goes in and what doesn't. Many people say that anything that could be of value to some people should be included as an option but that isn't a very viable across the entirety of the project. It sounds weird to say since it sounds like such an obvious "best of both worlds" solution. But if we went with this mode of thinking across the life of FfH it would be a jumbled mess and would never be where it is.

Thats just my 2 cents. When designing a game I would warn against the danger of adding options. Its an easy answer that will sink your project (in my opinion).

 

[Bill Bisco]

Everyone except the guy who has to merge and support it.

This is the typical argument for adding all options. It adds complexity, lowers performance, and is a lot of work to implement, all for features that aren't valuable (in my opinion, though I completely understand why others think differently).

The hard part of design is making decisions, what goes in and what doesn't. Many people say that anything that could be of value to some people should be included as an option but that isn't a very viable across the entirety of the project. It sounds weird to say since it sounds like such an obvious "best of both worlds" solution. But if we went with this mode of thinking across the life of FfH it would be a jumbled mess and would never be where it is.

Thats just my 2 cents. When designing a game I would warn against the danger of adding options. Its an easy answer that will sink your project (in my opinion).

A few things

1. I agree that a developer's time is limited and the cost/benefit ratio must be considered. However, in the case of merging and the work required, it seems that there are some people that would happily do the work of properly merging the BUG mod and supporting it if you asked.

2. Performance and speed is of course a valid concern. My guess is that the BUG mod would not significantly affect the base game speed. One never truly knows until one tests of course, and a test would be relatively simple to do.

3. Regarding complexity, option inflation, etc. The BUG mod doesn't actually change the game it just compiles and presents information for the benefit of the player. The BUG mod options are by themselves accessible only by a Keystroke and are not cluttered with the already existing game options.

4. Regarding Value of the Options themselves. If points 1-3 are correct, then adding the BUG mod requires little to no effort on your part, and is of value to those who use it even if it's not much value to you.

 

[Kael]

A few things

1. I agree that a developer's time is limited and the cost/benefit ratio must be considered. However, in the case of merging and the work required, it seems that there are some people that would happily do the work of properly merging the BUG mod and supporting it if you asked.

2. Performance and speed is of course a valid concern. My guess is that the BUG mod would not significantly affect the base game speed. One never truly knows until one tests of course, and a test would be relatively simple to do.

3. Regarding complexity, option inflation, etc. The BUG mod doesn't actually change the game it just compiles and presents information for the benefit of the player. The BUG mod options are by themselves accessible only by a Keystroke and are not cluttered with the already existing game options.

4. Regarding Value of the Options themselves. If points 1-3 are correct, then adding the BUG mod requires little to no effort on your part, and is of value to those who use it even if it's not much value to you.

All fair points. But I dont think its possible for someone to support a specific feature of a mod because a mod isnt a list of separate features. Its one big jumble of interacting features. Its not the bugs in specific features that worry me, those are pretty easy. Its the interaction between features that really messes us up and takes years to work out (like why settlements caused CtD's when you went into the religious overlay map).

From the complexity standpoint I meant 2 things. 1 is from the player perspective, which you are correct in stating that wouldnt matter with the options turned off (especially if they defaulted to being off). But there is also the complexity from the code perspective. FfH is hundreds of thousands of lines of code. Adding more to that needs to include a significant benifit, and I don't see that in BUG.

Those are my thoughts at least. Not that they are right or wrong, or anyone else is wrong for thinking differently. But thats where my head is.

ps. Im really liking the pedia additions from your suggestions. Its all basic stuff, just hard to see when you are really deep in the nuts and bolts. I think its going to make the mod so much easier for new players. Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal if FfH doesn't include BUG... That's what modmods are for. I believe there's one that doesn't alter gameplay, and then Wildmana includes it too.

Now, what I would like would be an updated version of Greyfox's pedia...

 

[Tasunke]

Honestly, I dont care much for documentation. Highest priority is to improve the AI, which is probably one of the hardest coding jobs to do well.

 

[deanej]

But there is also the complexity from the code perspective. FfH is hundreds of thousands of lines of code. Adding more to that needs to include a significant benifit, and I don't see that in BUG.

And from that perspective, BUG is (one of) the most complicated mods ever written.