actually we can't build those buildings either, and the AI will have security bureaus. But we can run the nat civic for 25%.
Either way the long term is not favorable for us tech wise so we have to grab more land than usual.
UNGY5 Let's keep it simple!
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
Either way the long term is not favorable for us tech wise so we have to grab more land than usual.
Rusten: you mention canceling the dye deal to Asoka once he gets drama and it becomes +2 happy.
I always went under the assumption that the AI under HR would have enough happiness and I periodically would check the GPT to see if they will trade more. Once they go US I would check the main AI and consider denying them happy. Should I be more careful about giving away the happy resources?
I always went under the assumption that the AI under HR would have enough happiness and I periodically would check the GPT to see if they will trade more. Once they go US I would check the main AI and consider denying them happy. Should I be more careful about giving away the happy resources?
Dirk1302
Deity
Ah, ok. In that case we can just switch temporarily as silver suggested to steal some things of Ramesses.
No, I fully agree with you. I also trade away surplus happiness rather than surplus health, but the deal is only 4 gpt so we don't get much out of it. You can see all the military units Asoka's got stored in Delhi in my screenshot for instance. While on that subject, I'm not sure why we're giving Izzy corn, that seems a bad idea. I tried to cancel the deal during my set, but I wasn't able to. I played 10 turns total so we should be able to now.
Might be a good idea to renegotiate the trade with WK as well (fish for wine). It was made early when we didn't have HR or any other resources available.
Regarding your turnset/plans:
- selling HBR rather than literature brings an extra 100 gold.
- aiming for Madrid first makes sense. We'll be able to attack it on the second turn. I'd get more spies though. It seems we want to focus on some espionage later and in that case the extra spies won't be wasted hammers anyway.
Education and liberalism are useless techs for us. The only reason to go for lib is that we need it for communism anyway. However, by the time we need it we can probably trade for it (or steal it) anyway. Going gunpowder -> chemistry makes more sense to me.
silverbullet
King
Yes, I only suggested it temporarily. In the short term it is just 2~3 times more efficient than pure beakers assuming Ramesses remains in the lead and researches useful stuff. After a few turns of 100% espionage we will be able to see what he researches. If it's divine right or other useless stuff we can switch to pure science.
In the long term the only "real" multiplier we are allowed is production multiplier, but until then, the best multiplier is espionage discounts - roughly a 2.5 multiplier, or 40% cost, assuming Confucianism.
As Ungy mentioned, there is a diplomatic cost to that, so we will need to steal in bursts - 10 turns of judaism, 5 turns of confucianism.
I think this does not contradict war preparations - there is no additional tech that we immediately need, so we better accumulate some espionage points against Ramesses.
We need to build a few spies anyway, and after they revolt Madrid, they can go to Egypt duty.
We will need to whip a few more spies, and that will mean less military whipping, but I think we can afford it.
Another option is to mix espionage and beakers.
1) A few turns of 100% EP to see what Ramesses is researching.
2) If he is not immediately going paper->education we can research printing press (commerce boost) or gunpowder (for chemistry).
3) Once Ramesses starts education switch to EP and steal it on the turn he gets it
4) After stealing education switch to beakers and head for liberalism (taking chemistry)
In any case, even if we don't go for espionage economy, it's not a bad idea to see what Ramesses is researching.
In the long term the only "real" multiplier we are allowed is production multiplier, but until then, the best multiplier is espionage discounts - roughly a 2.5 multiplier, or 40% cost, assuming Confucianism.
As Ungy mentioned, there is a diplomatic cost to that, so we will need to steal in bursts - 10 turns of judaism, 5 turns of confucianism.
I think this does not contradict war preparations - there is no additional tech that we immediately need, so we better accumulate some espionage points against Ramesses.
We need to build a few spies anyway, and after they revolt Madrid, they can go to Egypt duty.
We will need to whip a few more spies, and that will mean less military whipping, but I think we can afford it.
Another option is to mix espionage and beakers.
1) A few turns of 100% EP to see what Ramesses is researching.
2) If he is not immediately going paper->education we can research printing press (commerce boost) or gunpowder (for chemistry).
3) Once Ramesses starts education switch to EP and steal it on the turn he gets it
4) After stealing education switch to beakers and head for liberalism (taking chemistry)
In any case, even if we don't go for espionage economy, it's not a bad idea to see what Ramesses is researching.
I play a little (5 turns).
I make a couple of trades:
and
I change production in Nic to spy--that'll be the spy factory.
Shift EP's to Ramesses.
IBT Trireme defeats barb galley.
540 I check Izzie re the corn deal--she's got +6 health w/o the corn+ expansive+3 so I don't think it hurts too much to give it to her--I renegotiate to 8gpt.
560 paper in
AP in--Ramesses! We get to vote for Charlie as well.
Ramesses is spreading Judiasm for us.
I set research to PP at 0%.
580 Charlie is elected on turn 139.
The tech screen:
We make a trade with Charlie:
We make a trade with Asoka:
We make a civic change:
The bad news--paper got researched and spread around really quick.
IBT Ramesses founds Islam.
620 a look at Izzie's lands reveals weakness on our border:
Izzie's SOD is by Asoka:
Unfortunately Ramesses is teching well and will get a boost shortly from UoS:
Maybe we should attack sooner rather than later?
Iz is 5 turns from Machinery.
I'm going to pause it here as it's getting late. I'm thinking we should attack in around 5 turns with around 12 UU, rush Madrid (whether or not we can get the walls down), and then wait for Izzie's SOD to come to Madrid where we can whack it with the UU. Switch some treb builds to LB to defend Madrid.
Meanwhile newly built units move to Barcelona--since we know where the SOD is we don't have to worry about a surprise attack in the N.
I make a couple of trades:
and
I change production in Nic to spy--that'll be the spy factory.
Shift EP's to Ramesses.
IBT Trireme defeats barb galley.
540 I check Izzie re the corn deal--she's got +6 health w/o the corn+ expansive+3 so I don't think it hurts too much to give it to her--I renegotiate to 8gpt.
560 paper in
AP in--Ramesses! We get to vote for Charlie as well.
Ramesses is spreading Judiasm for us.
I set research to PP at 0%.
580 Charlie is elected on turn 139.
The tech screen:
We make a trade with Charlie:
We make a trade with Asoka:
We make a civic change:
The bad news--paper got researched and spread around really quick.
IBT Ramesses founds Islam.
620 a look at Izzie's lands reveals weakness on our border:
Izzie's SOD is by Asoka:
Unfortunately Ramesses is teching well and will get a boost shortly from UoS:
Maybe we should attack sooner rather than later?
Iz is 5 turns from Machinery.
I'm going to pause it here as it's getting late. I'm thinking we should attack in around 5 turns with around 12 UU, rush Madrid (whether or not we can get the walls down), and then wait for Izzie's SOD to come to Madrid where we can whack it with the UU. Switch some treb builds to LB to defend Madrid.
Meanwhile newly built units move to Barcelona--since we know where the SOD is we don't have to worry about a surprise attack in the N.
Dirk1302
Deity
Agreed with the plan, Izzy's really slow this game. She needs engineering as well to have some sort of counter to us, by that time we should also have some trebs besides catas. She'll be dead soon.
silverbullet
King
I agree, Izzy can do nothing with her poor SOD, and if we manage to snatch all her commerce cities, she won't have a lot of cash to even upgrade to maces.
I think Ramesses teching well is good new for us, not bad news. He is a perfect espionage target for us, and in the long term he will be a great vassal that we can trade with. In any war with Ramesses I woudl not capture the city that borders Thessa, so we can keep stealing from him.
After having voted for Charlie we might get to even keep him pleased after switching to Confucianism.
Given that Izzy is really slow in this game and everyone doesn't like her, I would say it's better to eliminate her or make peace with her rather than to vassal her.
If we are quick we can have a 2nd war against Ramesses with trebs+cuirassiers, or maybe even against Charlemagne.
The only thing that will slow us down is if they get military tradition+gunpowder, and the only thing to really stop us is rifles. If we manage a quick war vs. Izzy we can probably get the most of our UU and start a 2nd war.
I think Ramesses teching well is good new for us, not bad news. He is a perfect espionage target for us, and in the long term he will be a great vassal that we can trade with. In any war with Ramesses I woudl not capture the city that borders Thessa, so we can keep stealing from him.
After having voted for Charlie we might get to even keep him pleased after switching to Confucianism.
Given that Izzy is really slow in this game and everyone doesn't like her, I would say it's better to eliminate her or make peace with her rather than to vassal her.
If we are quick we can have a 2nd war against Ramesses with trebs+cuirassiers, or maybe even against Charlemagne.
The only thing that will slow us down is if they get military tradition+gunpowder, and the only thing to really stop us is rifles. If we manage a quick war vs. Izzy we can probably get the most of our UU and start a 2nd war.
Actually Izzie is surprisingly well liked--only Asoka is annoyed and Wang is pleased.
I play 4 more turns and complete our buildup. I think we're ready to go.
we make a few trades:
the tech screen:
A major note: I have not moved this turn. Just ended turn to see if our spies survived (they did).
AP--by my count we are 7 turns since the founding. I think (and could someone correct me if I'm wrong) that we could get an AP res to stop the war if we DOW this turn but by waiting a turn we remove that threat. Not sure if that's worth a delay. Izzie has a single city up north that is Jewish--we might want to send a strike force there as if we get it that'll stop the AP risk. I would recommend defying.
The planned assault on Madrid: we have 13 cata that reach. Iz will likely have around that many units but we should win virtually all the battles if the walls come down. That's around 95% if the spies survive the next turn. A few one move units and 2 more catas should be able to reach Madrid turn 2 if it's captured, otherwise turn 3 as I hooked up the road and the other cultures don't reach. Izzies SOD if it moves towards us will be adjacent to Madrid after turn 3. Unfortunately there's a hill and river for her to hide on--but we can surely deal with it if the melee units aren't upgraded.
We have stone to trade--we can get $ from Ramesses but we should wait until he finishes SM.
Turn it over to General Silverbullet for the action!
we make a few trades:
the tech screen:
A major note: I have not moved this turn. Just ended turn to see if our spies survived (they did).
AP--by my count we are 7 turns since the founding. I think (and could someone correct me if I'm wrong) that we could get an AP res to stop the war if we DOW this turn but by waiting a turn we remove that threat. Not sure if that's worth a delay. Izzie has a single city up north that is Jewish--we might want to send a strike force there as if we get it that'll stop the AP risk. I would recommend defying.
The planned assault on Madrid: we have 13 cata that reach. Iz will likely have around that many units but we should win virtually all the battles if the walls come down. That's around 95% if the spies survive the next turn. A few one move units and 2 more catas should be able to reach Madrid turn 2 if it's captured, otherwise turn 3 as I hooked up the road and the other cultures don't reach. Izzies SOD if it moves towards us will be adjacent to Madrid after turn 3. Unfortunately there's a hill and river for her to hide on--but we can surely deal with it if the melee units aren't upgraded.
We have stone to trade--we can get $ from Ramesses but we should wait until he finishes SM.
Turn it over to General Silverbullet for the action!
silverbullet
King
Thank you ungy.
I agree we should attack immediately. It is unlikely Charles will vote to stop the war.
It is very critical to declare before Izzy gets engineering, not so much for the fear of pikemen, but more for the mobility. Without engineering she can move 2 squares per turn on roads, just like our cataphracts.
If we can capture madrid in 2 turns and capture barcelona 2 turns later we will likely delay engineering by a lot.
I would change the production in some cities to spies, to better utilize the overflow and also to get some visibility to Izzy's land. If they survive I will send them to Ramesses.
I would leave Izzy with a jewish city because I want to demand her to covert and capitulate. Another option is not to demand anything and just use a spy to change her religion. For that reason it is important that we don't capture Zaragoza.
I would like to capture Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, and maybe Toledo too, and after that I would accept capitulation as soon as possible so we can go forward to take Bombay and Delhi.
If there are no objections, I will play my turns tomorrow.
If anyone wants further discussion, please say so.
I agree we should attack immediately. It is unlikely Charles will vote to stop the war.
It is very critical to declare before Izzy gets engineering, not so much for the fear of pikemen, but more for the mobility. Without engineering she can move 2 squares per turn on roads, just like our cataphracts.
If we can capture madrid in 2 turns and capture barcelona 2 turns later we will likely delay engineering by a lot.
I would change the production in some cities to spies, to better utilize the overflow and also to get some visibility to Izzy's land. If they survive I will send them to Ramesses.
I would leave Izzy with a jewish city because I want to demand her to covert and capitulate. Another option is not to demand anything and just use a spy to change her religion. For that reason it is important that we don't capture Zaragoza.
I would like to capture Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, and maybe Toledo too, and after that I would accept capitulation as soon as possible so we can go forward to take Bombay and Delhi.
If there are no objections, I will play my turns tomorrow.
If anyone wants further discussion, please say so.
Well we can always send her a missionary to reestablish a Jewish city.
But your call--Zaragoza is really out of the way so it would be a distraction to take it.
I agree with capitulating her and moving on.
Once we get her converted she'll have good relations with the rest of the bunch save Asoka.
Once Madrid is taken we should take police state IMHO--rep does us very little good here
silverbullet
King
Good call about police state. I usually automatically switch to rep without thinking and I was going to do the same here. Thanks for reminding me.
Regarding sending missionary - Izzy is theocratic, so we cannot spread another religion in her cities. If we capture her only jewish city she will not be able to convert. We will need to covert out of theocracy and demand her to change her civics (or use spies). It's a bit more of a hassle.
Regarding sending missionary - Izzy is theocratic, so we cannot spread another religion in her cities. If we capture her only jewish city she will not be able to convert. We will need to covert out of theocracy and demand her to change her civics (or use spies). It's a bit more of a hassle.
good point. I don't think we should use the gift missionary play--I think that's an exploit.
I'm on the road for a couple of days so keep it going without me if necessary--I think Dirk is up after Silverbullet.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Having finished my walkthrough game I'm available to be slotted in wherever.
silverbullet
King
I played my turns. Report will follow shortly.
silverbullet
King
Turn 146 720AD (inherited turn) - we declare war on Spain.
I use 2 invading forces, the main one to Madrid 13 cataprarcts and a secondary one to Barcelona (which is very lightly defended) with 2 cataphracts, 2 trebs and 2 maces. Additional Cataphracts are on the way.
I give Banana to Ramesses for gold. Remember to cancel this deal when possible and trade him stone or a happiness resource instead.
Turn 147 740AD Isabella gets confused by our dual invading force and splits her forces between Madrid and Barcelona. Her swordsmen SOD slowly makes its way from the Indian border. She is gathering cash for upgrades since engineering suddenly became 18 turns away instead of 7.
Our spy has succeeded in its mission.
And so did the cataphracts
I was a bit disappointed to see no academy in Madrid, but you can't complain with a market, forge, +17 temple, mids, GLib, oracle and SoZ.
I switch to police state for better military production
760AD We capture Barcelona
A great general becomes a great healer horse archer
We get an AP decision which I don't care much about.
I vote no but the proposal passes.
Note that Asoka already has enough on his hands - must be Izzy.
A few more uneventful turns - I move forces and heal the existing ones. Izzy collects all her forces in cordoba - this requires more trebs.
Finally in 900AD, after having captured Cordoba and Seville, Izzy agrees to capitulate.
Asoka stopped having enough on his hands, which means he is afraid of our military might. We can probably gift a few war techs to Izzy, heal and re-attack.
I have collected an army of spies in Vandal.
There is something I don't understand about espionage again - did something change with the new patch? I don't get the 20% discount for trade routes. I have checked and verified that Vandal has 2 trade routes with our city - is that not enough for a 20% discount?
I will post a question about it in the strategy and tips forum.
In any case, we will get 40% discount if we convert to Confucianism.
I have asked Charlemagne for a gift so we are still in a peace treaty and it's safe to convert for now. He might still get into WHEOOH while at peace treaty if he is not pleased, but we will have enough time to get our mighty army to his border.
Ramesses will get liberalism next turn and we should watch and see what free tech he chooses. We might be able to steal it and trade it for education, or we might want to steal education to get a discount for gunpowder. We can also steal divine right and use it as a trading token, although no one will trade at the moment.
I suggest revolting to organized religion and representation and get more courthouses, hippodromes and jewish temples.
Going forward we have several options:
1) Take Ramesses and all his juicy wonders. We have to make sure that Charlemagne cannot be bribed to war when pleased
2) Take Charlemagne as he is the biggest military threat. This requires more trebs and a slow war with maces, trebs and cataphracts. Ideally we should get more jewish cities for us and Izzy so we can block any decisions (or maybe we can get elected).
If Charles gets military tradition and gunpowder we might need better units to fight him, but we can still win with enough units. The downside of this one is that WK and Ramesses will rush ahead in tech. This is not too bad because they are easy to conquer later, and Ramesses can build more nice wonders for us, such as SoL.
3) Take Asoka - he is weak and easy to take. We can get at least 2 good cities from him and shrine, but that might mean we will need to wait until steel before declaring on anyone else.
Some other options:
* We might want to convert to vassalage for 5 turns so that we can ask Izzy to covert to vassalage/OR. This will make her friendly with Charles and Ramesses faster and they will trade with us monopoly techs.
The downside is losing bureaucracy for 5 turns, I think it's worth it, unless we want to conquer Charles next and then we don't care about diplomacy with him.
I think the ideal scenario is to declare on Ramesses after stealing whatever we can from him and going back to Judaism. When we are back in Judaism we should be safe from Charlemagne, but please double check to make sure he can be bribed against someone he is pleased with.
We will need to help Ramesses to spread Judaism to Izzy's and our cities so that we can get a lot of votes.
I use 2 invading forces, the main one to Madrid 13 cataprarcts and a secondary one to Barcelona (which is very lightly defended) with 2 cataphracts, 2 trebs and 2 maces. Additional Cataphracts are on the way.
I give Banana to Ramesses for gold. Remember to cancel this deal when possible and trade him stone or a happiness resource instead.
Turn 147 740AD Isabella gets confused by our dual invading force and splits her forces between Madrid and Barcelona. Her swordsmen SOD slowly makes its way from the Indian border. She is gathering cash for upgrades since engineering suddenly became 18 turns away instead of 7.
Our spy has succeeded in its mission.
And so did the cataphracts
I was a bit disappointed to see no academy in Madrid, but you can't complain with a market, forge, +17 temple, mids, GLib, oracle and SoZ.
I switch to police state for better military production
760AD We capture Barcelona
A great general becomes a great healer horse archer
We get an AP decision which I don't care much about.
I vote no but the proposal passes.
Note that Asoka already has enough on his hands - must be Izzy.
A few more uneventful turns - I move forces and heal the existing ones. Izzy collects all her forces in cordoba - this requires more trebs.
Finally in 900AD, after having captured Cordoba and Seville, Izzy agrees to capitulate.
Asoka stopped having enough on his hands, which means he is afraid of our military might. We can probably gift a few war techs to Izzy, heal and re-attack.
I have collected an army of spies in Vandal.
There is something I don't understand about espionage again - did something change with the new patch? I don't get the 20% discount for trade routes. I have checked and verified that Vandal has 2 trade routes with our city - is that not enough for a 20% discount?
I will post a question about it in the strategy and tips forum.
In any case, we will get 40% discount if we convert to Confucianism.
I have asked Charlemagne for a gift so we are still in a peace treaty and it's safe to convert for now. He might still get into WHEOOH while at peace treaty if he is not pleased, but we will have enough time to get our mighty army to his border.
Ramesses will get liberalism next turn and we should watch and see what free tech he chooses. We might be able to steal it and trade it for education, or we might want to steal education to get a discount for gunpowder. We can also steal divine right and use it as a trading token, although no one will trade at the moment.
I suggest revolting to organized religion and representation and get more courthouses, hippodromes and jewish temples.
Going forward we have several options:
1) Take Ramesses and all his juicy wonders. We have to make sure that Charlemagne cannot be bribed to war when pleased
2) Take Charlemagne as he is the biggest military threat. This requires more trebs and a slow war with maces, trebs and cataphracts. Ideally we should get more jewish cities for us and Izzy so we can block any decisions (or maybe we can get elected).
If Charles gets military tradition and gunpowder we might need better units to fight him, but we can still win with enough units. The downside of this one is that WK and Ramesses will rush ahead in tech. This is not too bad because they are easy to conquer later, and Ramesses can build more nice wonders for us, such as SoL.
3) Take Asoka - he is weak and easy to take. We can get at least 2 good cities from him and shrine, but that might mean we will need to wait until steel before declaring on anyone else.
Some other options:
* We might want to convert to vassalage for 5 turns so that we can ask Izzy to covert to vassalage/OR. This will make her friendly with Charles and Ramesses faster and they will trade with us monopoly techs.
The downside is losing bureaucracy for 5 turns, I think it's worth it, unless we want to conquer Charles next and then we don't care about diplomacy with him.
I think the ideal scenario is to declare on Ramesses after stealing whatever we can from him and going back to Judaism. When we are back in Judaism we should be safe from Charlemagne, but please double check to make sure he can be bribed against someone he is pleased with.
We will need to help Ramesses to spread Judaism to Izzy's and our cities so that we can get a lot of votes.
silverbullet
King
A few more thoughts:
1) Regarding the espionage 20% trade route discount - I just figured out the issue.
To qualify for the discount, one of OUR cities must have a trade route to Vandal. It appears that trade routes are not symmetric - Vandal has trade routes to us but we don't have trade routes to Vandal.
Once the ex-Spanish cities come out of revolt we should get more trade routes, maybe one of them will be to Vandal.
We could also close borders with WK so that we get more trade routes with Egyptian cities, but I don't know if there are any diplomatic penalties for that.
In any case, we already get 20% discount for our espionage spending and if we convert we will get 40% discount for religion. With the addition of 50% discount for fortified spies, we will get techs at 36% cost without trade routes, or at 28.8% cost with discount. So maybe it's not worth the trouble.
I would burn all our money on EP vs. Ramesses and build a few more spies and then steal a burst of useful techs. Ideally we could steal monopoly techs and trade them to Charlemagne.
2) Please disregard my previous suggestion of revolting to vassalage in order to ask Izzy to do the same. It is not very useful because she is spiritual and will convert back to bureaucracy. It is useful though to ask her to convert to organized religion because we want this civic anyway - we have some buildings and missionaries to build.
1) Regarding the espionage 20% trade route discount - I just figured out the issue.
To qualify for the discount, one of OUR cities must have a trade route to Vandal. It appears that trade routes are not symmetric - Vandal has trade routes to us but we don't have trade routes to Vandal.
Once the ex-Spanish cities come out of revolt we should get more trade routes, maybe one of them will be to Vandal.
We could also close borders with WK so that we get more trade routes with Egyptian cities, but I don't know if there are any diplomatic penalties for that.
In any case, we already get 20% discount for our espionage spending and if we convert we will get 40% discount for religion. With the addition of 50% discount for fortified spies, we will get techs at 36% cost without trade routes, or at 28.8% cost with discount. So maybe it's not worth the trouble.
I would burn all our money on EP vs. Ramesses and build a few more spies and then steal a burst of useful techs. Ideally we could steal monopoly techs and trade them to Charlemagne.
2) Please disregard my previous suggestion of revolting to vassalage in order to ask Izzy to do the same. It is not very useful because she is spiritual and will convert back to bureaucracy. It is useful though to ask her to convert to organized religion because we want this civic anyway - we have some buildings and missionaries to build.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
didn't you stop abit early; wasn't there any other decent city to get from izzy(didn't load the save)?
it's useless - her fav. civic is theo so she'll switch back asap... though I think you'll get "go against everything we stand for" anyway
if you plan to take ramses with catas, imho don't give him stone, or there'll be castles everywhere. Also, if planning to use trebs. Though you can charge even through castles with catas if you make the ai move lbows around to reinforce and lose the 25% fortify, but it's abit messier.
it's useless - her fav. civic is theo so she'll switch back asap... though I think you'll get "go against everything we stand for" anyway
if you plan to take ramses with catas, imho don't give him stone, or there'll be castles everywhere. Also, if planning to use trebs. Though you can charge even through castles with catas if you make the ai move lbows around to reinforce and lose the 25% fortify, but it's abit messier.
