UNGY7 We'll do it by ourself

[ungy]

Since we started on MS we should finish it i think. Boudica'll have frigates after astro, SOL's eat them. The initial idea was to defend at sea,or are we now switching to defence on land? A choice should be made since it leads to different techpaths and different build priorities in the cities

yes that's why I stopped. Actually it's only overflow in MS atm so nothing invested.
I'm inclined to defend the seas as:

1. our research is good and our drafting is not ideal. We'll only lose 4 turns to rifling at the most.

2. I never do that but this seems like a good prospect

I'm still inclined to build some privateers--it looks like Boudica needs to assemble a fleet, and we're close with the movement bonus so we should have chances to pick ships off as they assemble

 

[bestsss]

ungy, invited me to join (due to being understaffed). Most likely I'd be able to join by the end of the next week (since I won't be able available before).

I looked at the saves. Boudica researched chemistry, right. If so, I guess she is after steel which is not very good. There is enough cash and great merchants to tech. mil sci->>>rifling->music-MT before we get invaded I suppose. At least I'd feel safer w/ cavalry.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Welcome. Don't think so, she'll go MS first. In my experience ais are really late researching steel and if an ai researches it rather early it's very often a good techer. Then again i've seen the 3 tech sequence gp->chem->ms over and over again for aggressive ais.For instance in the aw game KK went that route exactly. It seems ais don't see steel as a warmonger's tech. Actually Boudica researching steel would be better than ms imo at this point.

I think sea defence is a good idea, we can build drydocks to spam sea units. I wouldn't build too much privateers, they can pick off some of Boudica units now but they're fairly useless later, it's Sols we need. A few privateers is ok though. I take it without looking up the reference that privateers upgrade to frigate but not SOL?

 

[Duckweed]

Welcome, Bestsss.

The situation is severe now, defending Rheims with land units is hard, so the better way is navy. I'd start building frigates and privateers immediately and research MS after Steel and build SoLs to kill everything in the sea. Boudica should be researching Astro and Chemistry now. Time is urgent, whipping the coastal cities for navies.

If we can control the sea, then Rifling can be delayed, I'm more interested in the free GSpy and GS after MS. I think we can run 2 or 3 golden ages if we can win the 2 GPs and hence GT will become very useful with the free civic change.

As Dirk mentioned, Boudica will possibly go for MS next and this makes naval battle harder. So I mentioned SoL and Physics for airships in the 1st place. Rifling is good for war vs Monty, but no need for Boudica now.

 

[Duckweed]

well, that's my prob. too and that's why I want her 1st... with us declaring when we're ready if she doesn't declare till then. Land on hill, let her suicide, whatever... Plus look at this continent land - it's rich; now compare with the undeveloped crap we'd probably get from monty... with cities with 1-2 buildings each...

Do you have a plan of the war vs Boudica? i.e.

How many units you need?
How many turns you need to produce them?
What kind of unit are you expecting from Boudica when landing?
How long do you expect to finish the war?
Do you consider the WW issue and imagine how bad would be our economy then?
Can we keep our military tech advance or at least parity?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

1ne of camulodunum

15 cannons; 15 rifles; 10 maces(to be promoted); 10 cavs.

expect cuirs/grens 1st wave; after you trash her army, it's really irrelevant. Given the size, there'll be a 2nd army to be trashed, but probably much smaller.

ww should be solved with the new resources we acquire - gems in 1st phase 2 happy(our forges are cheap), then dye later and sugar. No clue what's in north - probably gold from what I see in the trade screen.

Go south to vienne - probably bibracte is near vienne(it's the 2nd celt city). I expect tech parity pretty soon since she'll go for rifles pretty fast probably. That's why we need the maces - for cr3 rifles since boudica has the best troops - especially after warring for so long.

Time to prepare - 6 turns for drafting after rifling. Maces could be done pretty fast; cavs are already done and we should have cash to promote both knights and trebs. We definitely need a GA. 10 galleons, 3-4 frigates to soak up. We should be ready with the cannons/maces/knights till rifling(we should do a double whipping round for trebs. before steel) - the fleet will be a pain to produce on the other hand... but ain't that usually the case anyway?

and yes - it's abit market garden, but hey... maybe we're smarter then monty

reason why - otherwise, we need to keep defensive army to counter her attack, plus send another army to attack... 2 armies equal more or less what we need for this offensive and the land we'd get from someone else will be worse.

btw - I'm really ok if we attack someone else.

 

[bestsss]

What if she actually gets cannons? I would not like to eat all the collateral.

I'd like to invade her w/ infantry/rifles/machine guns/cannons. I guess we have to cash the great merchant in Paris too and keep the max research. Also we have to settle one or two cities somewhere out there to boost the trade routes.

We should contain her by killing the navy, so I really prefer the navy route.

The other continent is quite far and sending reinforcements won't be easy but we can't attack before finishing the upcoming war w/ Boudica. Trying to please her (and keep her away form our affairs) won't be easy, though. (dunno: free religion/gifting her some crap island city, some tenchology adopting US would too much i think)

 

[SnowlyWhite]

we can't ob, we can't trade resources; that scraps +4; we really have no benefit from US... we'd have dubious benefit from fr since we have only one religion...

we probably won't need much reinforcements for monty/willy, but I don't see what uber things we'd get from them - continent with 2 nations, that means probably 2 happy resources(didn't load). Mony doesn't really build infra and whatever infra will be half destroyed when we capture... so what will we get?

 

[bestsss]

We can give away resources and techologies for tree +4 fair trade and +1res, but it will take too much time for.

Ungy, do you remember when Boudica got chemistry, if it was before we had have steel. Steel is more likely since it's monopoly tech. If the civilization knows at least 2 others and no one has that technology, the monopoly value is 25% per know civilization-2 (i.e. extra 50% for 4 known civs). I think Suleiman had military science, so it was not monopoly.

Edit: if I am right about that part (i.e. Boudica is researching cannons), I'd say the odds to go democracy(!) next are very high, it's 3 deep (printing press, constitution, democracy). It's her fav. civic, and has open wonder and it's monopoly. Unless the random is totally cruel of course. Yet, that's a very good estimation.

 

[Duckweed]

1ne of camulodunum

15 cannons; 15 rifles; 10 maces(to be promoted); 10 cavs.

expect cuirs/grens 1st wave; after you trash her army, it's really irrelevant. Given the size, there'll be a 2nd army to be trashed, but probably much smaller.

ww should be solved with the new resources we acquire - gems in 1st phase 2 happy(our forges are cheap), then dye later and sugar. No clue what's in north - probably gold from what I see in the trade screen.

Go south to vienne - probably bibracte is near vienne(it's the 2nd celt city). I expect tech parity pretty soon since she'll go for rifles pretty fast probably. That's why we need the maces - for cr3 rifles since boudica has the best troops - especially after warring for so long.

Time to prepare - 6 turns for drafting after rifling. Maces could be done pretty fast; cavs are already done and we should have cash to promote both knights and trebs. We definitely need a GA. 10 galleons, 3-4 frigates to soak up. We should be ready with the cannons/maces/knights till rifling(we should do a double whipping round for trebs. before steel) - the fleet will be a pain to produce on the other hand... but ain't that usually the case anyway?

and yes - it's abit market garden, but hey... maybe we're smarter then monty

reason why - otherwise, we need to keep defensive army to counter her attack, plus send another army to attack... 2 armies equal more or less what we need for this offensive and the land we'd get from someone else will be worse.

btw - I'm really ok if we attack someone else.

You did not answer the turns you need for preparation, and here's my answer, we need ~15 turns to research Rifling and MT and 4 turns for MS, so your war plan can be executed ~30 turns later, so Boudica will very possibly has both Grens, Riflemans, and cannons. She will attack with >10 cannons after we land and >20 cavs + >20 other units after that. Could you imagine how many your mentioned units can survive after that attack?

Moreover, WW is a killing factor for a long lasting war, a size 10 city after 20 turns of war will get more than 5 WW, more severe if our loss is heavy. and I can easily imagine this war will definitely last more than 50 turns if execute your plan and imo very possible a failed war.

My plan of invading a huge AI in other continent is usually fighters/marines.

@Bestsss

The other continent is 3 turns away if we sail from eastern sea.

 

[bestsss]

>>The other continent is 3 turns away if we sail from eastern sea.
Indeed, Monthy is close enough.

 

[ungy]

we can't ob, we can't trade resources; that scraps +4;

we can gift resources and tech as well as give in to demands.
that should be enough to get to pleased pretty easily.

I played before the last few posts.


Anyway we don't need to solve our long term goals right now. ATM it looks very likely that Boudica is preparing war against us so we need to deal with that first.

I research MT with the goal of a naval defense. This won't delay rifling all that much anyway, and against her highly promoted ground units building navy w/drydocks is IMHO a better use of hammers especially as our navies come out with 2 promos.

1510 Iz is WHOORN--now that Suly has broken vassal it must be him.

1515--Boudica fleet is to the NW at Nemetocenna:

About as far from us as it could be.

Will has astro.

whip drydocks start 4 privateers. I back off some of the city growth in favor of production--plan not to grow into unhealthiness but whip/workshop instead.


1525 our privateering is off to a poor start--we lose @ 98.7

spy reveals that Boudica has a culture bridge to her SOD.

GS born--keep for a GA.

whack Iz caravel.

Suly is back to vassal--that quiets Izzie down.

At 90% we're researching 1000Bpt so we're flying towards rifling.

1530 our galleon finds land.

1535 trade mission for 2300 (Edirne).

Boudica appears to have steel:

1540 we pop a hostile hut.

1550 Iz demands our maps:

I don't think the map is worth much but neither are relations with Iz--and I think that'll add to the - with Boudica so no.

Monte takes a Willie city.

Izzie is WHOORN now--should be us.
I guess I should have given her the map.

1555 rifling in.
Boudica has astro--looks like she got it in trade. We now have her research PP.

We sink a couple of her ships but the age of privateering is over. As predicted, we didn't do too much damage--although we'dve sunk a few more ships w/o the bad rng.

The barb lands:

3 cities (LB), whale and crab.


The tech screen:

I've converted some farms/mines to mills/workshops.

 

[ungy]

save is here:

 

[ungy]

I definately agree with you that it doesn't make sense to attack her this era but

, we need ~15 turns to research Rifling.

was only 10 for the 4 techs
our tech is rocking--and we still have a GM.
GM to Amsterdam would have been 1900--if things get hot that might be good backup.


So summary, we have MS and rifling, Boudica has astro and steel and looks to be going to rifling. Boudica has vassal and vassal has MS.

I recommend researching theo, then pop a GA and revolt to nat and theo for 8 turns then back to bureau +?

Prepare for a major defensive war.

Maybe after that take the barb cities and or go for Monte? Monte looks to stay backwards for a while.

 

[bestsss]

Not bad at all Time to rule the seas. Like I told I will be off for the next week but back at the end. So I can take a set or something.
------
On a flip note: AI_demandRebukedWar returns true only for land targets (i.e. the famous >=8 tile rule) and if the target (i.e. player) has less defensive power (vassals/def. pact). That being said: not giving into demands and being on a separate continent will not result into an immediate war.
One funny remark of the code
// XXX what if already at war???
The developers were not quite sure about the case.

 

[Duckweed]

Got it, will post a plan tomorrow.

 

[Duckweed]

we need ~15 turns to research Rifling and MT

you could confuse MT with MS, but indeed the tech is faster than I expected due to the boost from PP.

 

[ungy]

you could confuse MT with MS, but indeed the tech is faster than I expected due to the boost from PP.

yes the second time this set I did that


I'm thinking theo (GA-revolt), scimeth-physics (rule the seas).
Do a GA for 8 turns of drafting then do another 2 ppl GA for the same.
Alternatively we could get a lot of use out of steam power as well.

 

[ungy]

Boudica cannot declare at pleased, so after this war we should do what it takes to get her there--then take out the other continent.

Agree with Duckweed's earlier post that Boudica will start to run away from us--we're rocking now techwise but we won't grow our economy much (and we won't be able to run this high science too much longer).

We could also research music to get a cathedral in capital.

 

[Duckweed]

Tech:

SP->Theo->SM->Communism

Starting GA right now is too early since our fleet for invasion is not ready yet. Adopting Nat and drafting is going to hurt our economy and those draft units are going to sit there and eat cash. I think delay GA a little bit would be better. The reason I'd go for Communism before Physics is that SP is strongly needed for oversea cities.

Aim to claim the three barb cities in the set.