UNGY7 We'll do it by ourself

[ungy]

Whip workers (Paris+NY) and start chopping Washington. I don't want to lose the Pyramids. Send all our existing workers over there as well.

...the master plants the seeds of an error
a good civ lesson that a casual suggestion from an expert shouldn't be treated as gospel.

I confess this also got me thinking that Washington would be better--I didn't catch the error when I looked at the save today.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

frankly, with the forests, I also thought(still think) Washington is better. Plus, I wouldn't mind leaving two forests around the capitol due to floodplains(we have only corn so far as granary resource).

Regarding my comment about getting the mids - well, if tgw is still open in 1160(1k years after the usual date) probably there aren't any people interested in wonders around... I mean, I'm still abit pissed because I didn't try a shot at the oracle(we probably could've snag it too - the build dates seem totally off, plus it's the 2nd or 3rd time I've ever saw toa go before oracle) - I've discarded it because it seemed to be a total gamble.

But anyway, Washington seemed better and still seems better... it's taking a while because we don't have stone, but there isn't much I could do about this There are 3 workers there to chop(one builds a road because it's on the tile that makes the trip to boston 1 turn only, so we need that road, one builds a mine because I plan to starve the city abit to erase another turn).

Regarding TOA, well, a forest chop with the current settings would've net us 50g - seems decent enough to me in 800 bc.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

turn 86

oracle bifal

turn 87

lyon is founded; costs us 4g overall.

turn 88

cf with lincoln;

turn 89

jewish shrine bifal

turn 90

nada

turn 91

nada; could whip mids, I decide against.

turn 92

nada

turn 93

we got it... (screen)

imho, we should revolt asap to rep and rearrange tiles in washington/new york and paris(do we want the 1st gs to pop. from paris or new york?). Those should be done this same turn.

 

[oyzar]

We should revolt to rep asap. Also the GG should probably be settled. We are not likely to war too much in the near future, the extra beakers from a settled specialist will be nice.

12 happiness is capital is not a lot. Forge/market/coloseum all give +1. Temple would also be nice, as would religion. That means we have to bulb philo (likely) though. Or do the slow wonder dates mean we can safely tech it ourselves? Confu was founded 750 BC (from oracle). Anyways 17 happiness still isn't a huge lot. Maybe we will have to use culture slider. With the culture slider and rep we defiantly don't want cottages anywhere but the capital. Question is, do we really want all those cottages in the capital? Only +6 health from resources though, so maybe the culture slider won't be needed, as we can't grow that much at any rate.

Why are all the axes around or near washington? If they were scattered around instead they could kill barbs and fogbust instead. We already got a level 4 for HE. That barb city is oddly placed, maybe there is iron there somewhere.

Why is orleans building a settler right before growing? Planning to whip it right?

That fish city to the south isn't that bad, It got potentially 4 grassland riverside tiles it doesn't share with anyone else (probably better to place it so it get both hills though, so just 3 grassland riverside tiles).

What is tech path now? Aestics -> litterature -> drama -> med -> philo(bulb) -> math -> music? We could swap in drama and med before litterature if we really want a religion, which might be best if going for culture.

Where are we building pantheon? Are we going to build the two other aestics wonders?

I assume people still don't want to go for (fast) culture? If we can get taoism pantheon and sistine + the GA from music we are in an incredibly good position for culture.

 

[Dirk1302]

Well we did get Mids afterall . I was perhaps over critical in my statement, would have to play it out myself to see if we might have gotten it sooner. I'm always a bit paranoid building wonders, the wonder timeline can be very strange sometimes.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

happy/health are issues indeed; market seems pretty crappy for only 1 happy - forge is ok, we have discount.

I wouldn't mind another barb city to be honest; free cash from pillage.

Orleans builds a settler mainly because there isn't much it could build

we need maths to clear philo bulb. Imho, should go lit - maths - alpha - med - drama and see how we stand for music(we should be able to figure out from time SoZ and SPaya will fall - maths is required for music too). Eventually sailing somewhere if south island is interesting - a wb is heading that way. That if we want tao.
If we avoid tao, then probably lit - maths - alpha - some useful stuff

I'd put parth in washington - seems a good prod. city.

I'd go for culture, but then we'll have to avoid tao(or else it'll spread around too much before we get astro in order to receive the other religions and then we'll have to hope they'll send misionaries). I don't see how we could go domi without any tech trading and being isolated...

 

[oyzar]

Why avoid Tao if we are going culture? The whole point of getting Tao is that we then can stack multipliers on top of each other (pac/NE/parth) to generate more GA's faster. Sure diplomacy will be hard, but hopefully we'll be able to generate quite a few GA's before we get to that point.

If we are going for culture lit is not THAT important as Glib is counterproductive. As such we could go math -> drama -> med -> philo(bulb) -> lit and then see where we are for music.

Why do we need alpha? We can't trade. PP is a long way off.

 

[bestsss]

You can't bulb philosophy w/o the alphabet (basically it's Math/Alpha the 1st priorities). The great library is always a very good wonder even for the denying sake, I believe. It speeds up the process to liberalism quite nicely.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

I'm against tao because we won't get the other religions fast enough from my experience(since it spreads randomly only if there's no religion already in a city). Now - 2-3 more religions should be worth abit more then let's say tops 3 GAs we could get from paci(which isn't even that much better since we'll get parth anyway - or should). And usually ais aren't too keen on sending missionaries on other continents till very late; with 1 religion only, getting culture will be slow.

And glib under rep. is quite respectable, especially if we academy it; ok, we'd have to soak up the gs it'll generate...

 

[oyzar]

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy

You are right of course, without alpha we can't bulb philo. Since Math and alpha aren't that cheap by themselves it might be an idea to just build academies/settle and tech philo before math/alpha.

As for Tao, if we do go for it, we would win (culture) with just one religion. It will take a lot of time before more religions spreads anyways (distance is quite huge to pretty much anywhere). Winning culture with just one religion might be slower than with more, but it is faster than waiting forever to get 2 (getting 3 is not really realistic).

 

[bestsss]

On a plus side: I believe you kept Lincoln to be able to get free technologies. I don't think he will tech alphabet soon enough;
Actually I suppose it's against the spirit of the game but past optics if you keep him somewhere (iceland) isolated you can use him as trading pet (vassal or not), give him something to trade and steal the result, it might not work very well; but at least it looks funny. You will have good very discounts for stealing off him.

 

[oyzar]

We can't get free technologies as the variant forbids it. Also he have invested more into EP than us.

 

[ungy]

good to see we've got the 'mids.

I'm not wild about planning a cultural game at this point--but I agree we may lack alternatives. There could be a backwards civ or two that we could easily conquer.

There may very well be some land to the S--I guess I'm just having a hard time imagining the map script that would put 2 nations on this crap.

I've played a lot of the lonely hearts games, and in a "normal" game it seems to be better to run for astro than lib--sometimes you get lib as well. Now we can get the trade routes here but not the tech trades or resources so astro is substantially nerfed.
Probably better to go lib as we have a good capital and CS will help.

I'd pop the GS in NY and build the parth in NY--glib+NE in Paris.

Definately academy for the first GS--then we may want to consider settling them. Bulbing w/o trading is much weaker than normal--in any case if we want to bulb philo we can use #2 or maybe even #3.

Research lit-alpha. Maybe we'll be able to steal sailing or IW?


Roster:

Snowly--just played
Oyzar--UP
Ungy--on deck
Rusten
Dirk
Duckweed--will get in when he frees up

 

[SnowlyWhite]

duh, right, we can't get techs even with peace... bleah, then we should kick him out when he leaves with the settler and there'll be only 3 archers in boston or what city he has. Good to see I totally forgot about the variant rules

actually, forgot extortion counts to the rules.

I'm not wild about culture either, but seems the only reasonable target atm - unless there's something good to the south.

actually, we could steal the small techs? or we can steal at most 5 techs the whole game? that's what I understand from Rusten's post on the 1st page - case in which stealing the small techs doesn't make any sense.

 

[ungy]

I'm not wild about culture either, but seems the only reasonable target atm - unless there's something good to the south.

actually, we could steal the small techs? or we can steal at most 5 techs the whole game? that's what I understand from Rusten's post on the 1st page - case in which stealing the small techs doesn't make any sense.

Not sure what the 5 was--I didn't think we had a limit on stealing techs.
So I think we're fine to steal but not extort--we might as well use up our EP's.

In any case I don't think we need to decide on a VC for at least the next set--by then we'll know about the south.

If we do go cultural, I agree about not bulbing philo--we'll do better to go the astro route and get trade routes sooner for natural spread.

 

[oyzar]

If we are going culture, do we even want great lib? I guess if we aren't going for really fast culture and aim to obsolete it with sci meth at some point it won't matter that much, though that do obsolete parthenon as well...

As such I think we should decide that before my set. Will probably not have time to play before this weekend.

Can we even steal when we are this much behind in EP? how much would sailing cost for example?

 

[ungy]

If we are going culture, do we even want great lib? I guess if we aren't going for really fast culture and aim to obsolete it with sci meth at some point it won't matter that much, though that do obsolete parthenon as well...

As such I think we should decide that before my set. Will probably not have time to play before this weekend.

Can we even steal when we are this much behind in EP? how much would sailing cost for example?

I guess I'd rather build the GL and try and win a VC other than culture. while that's certainly a legitimate VC, to some extent it sidesteps our constraints here. I do think our chances would be very good if we shot for it now--just not sure it would be as interesting.
If there is absolutely nothing to the S maybe you could pause and we could reconsider--you'll know that before we start the GLib.

As for the stealing, my guess is that we'd be able to steal sailing but would be close on IW (and wouldn't be able to get both). That kind of EP ratio is not a big deal.

 

[Dirk1302]

Don't know about culture and so don't know if it's feasible. Constraints point to domination (aside from culture perhaps). Isolated starts are certainly not bad for domination also since the attacked civ can't easily retaliate against your home turf.

 

[bestsss]

Can we even steal when we are this much behind in EP? how much would sailing cost for example?

Still it should be below the cost of the tech itself, so below 160 EP.

 

[ungy]

Oyzar are you there? You are up.