Unique Ability Elimination Thread

[Rooftrellen]

Sacrificial Captives: 16
Great Andean Road: 10
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 13
Achaemenid Legacy: 22

Sacrificial Captives is NOT about cultural victory, but extra SP's, particularly early. The Aztecs can go tall (ignoring the UB here, it's just about the UA) early and fight a war or hunt barbs for extra culture With some luck (more needed at higher levels of course), they may even take out another civ early, claiming a good amount of land for future development. In doing this, they can do several things, culturally, faster than other civs, getting those aquaducts in 4 cities faster, claiming a fast GP from liberty for religion, a wonder, or some early science, or round out their good kills with extra gold at the end of honor. Due to how it scales with time, it stays relavent throughout the game, as well.

Just don't look at it and say it's for cultural victory. It can be used in that way, but it's good even if you're doing something else (unlike, for instance, Art of War which was recently eliminated and not good for much other than...war).

Again, give me the Great Warpath over the Great Andean Road. Having to build the roads uses those vital early worker turns, and it's not so great outside of hilly inland regions. Moving onto hills and still having a move is nice, but it's not going to make much of a difference most of the time, and often hills are more defensive than an area from which to launch an attack. That means it's not something that is good enough to change how you play.

If a UA isn't good enough to make you think about your strategy, I'd say it doesn't belong in the top 10, let alone top 3.

 

[Crafty Bison]

It IS about a cultural victory, though can aid others if needed. It's still best for cultural. However, they can all be used for other vc's at this point, SC is not any different in this matter.

 

[Gucumatz]

@ Roof

I couldn't agree with you more on Sacrificial Captives

Couldn't agree with you less on Great Andean Road
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Sacrificial Captives allows faster movement through early policy trees (whether it be liberty/tradition/or even honor which is sometimes feasible for Aztecs to open but then go straight through the main 2 trees)

Getting a few earlier turns of a wonder booster, extra production, settler production bonus, whatever early on in the game is powerful. And while some people can't always then plan out exactly what its going to happen [and that annoys some] it gives a huge amount of flexibility.

Its not really for going cultural in my mind - its for a rapid development

==========

Having to build roads takes up worker turns? Ok if you have other things to do - then don't build roads right away. Its as simple as that - tile maintenance is still reduced [And improving tiles has a degree of cost too...] Moving through hills and forests (if they have a hill) to improve a tile can mean the difference between losing a wonder or gaining a wonder [Extra turn to chop forest, improve a tile, movement to reach a good tile to improve etc] That extra movement will allow your starting warrior to gain a better overall sight near your start to decide whether you want to settle where you spawned or move your settler.
=====

Moving onto hills makes a huge difference. Moving onto hills gives you the defensive bonus against counterattacks and allows you to gain extra sight. Moving onto hills with no problem allows your ranged units to strike and have cover to defend themselves (forest/hills in front of a hill prevent reaching from ranged unit) Mounted units can rush to support any tactical changes twice as fast as so can melee units giving you added edge.

When surrounding a well defended city it can take several turns to set up a good range assault/siege of a city - but with GAR one can instantly attack from more angles and do more damage per turn effectively using tactics if you have them to win wars and battles that other civs couldn't. The gold saving is gravy - and its much better than say Nobel Prize's gravy [the 10% from DOFs] and comes instantly and whenever which is much easier than waiting to go policy deep into Commerce... Having free trade routes on land is often times stronger than free trade routes on the sea because of unit movement and can let you have multiple strategies

And even in areas where there are few hills - the few hills that there are allow you multiple assets of tactical planning. Its like chess where each hill exponentially increases your options of attack. Great Warpath is defensive UA - it doesn't extend beyond your borders otherwise it would be much better rated)

Hills are everywhere and can never be chopped down. And even playing on a old earth setting and additional settings with as few hills as possible - The Inca will always have their starting bias giving enough hills for you to take advantage of your neighbors against.

Its amazingly flexible and shines the highest along with the Science UAs where it matters most - Multiplayer the ultimate test of power of a UA

 

[Rooftrellen]

It IS about a cultural victory, though can aid others if needed. It's still best for cultural. However, they can all be used for other vc's at this point, SC is not any different in this matter.

Taking the whole of the Aztecs into account, since you can't very well apply the UA only to a real game situation, I feel they are best suited for a domination or science victory, and I don't like them for culture at all.

The UA doesn't give enough extra culture to make them good at it as a VC, but it does give them enough to get a few extra policies, much like the French UA isn't about going for culture, in spite of giving it. The ideal way to use them (seems to be to be) is just different, with France doing best with their extra culture by building a wide sprawling empire and the Aztecs building tall.

In spire of the culture, those UA's don't scream cultural victory in the same way Songhai screams domination or Sweden, diplomacy.

 

[Petiscator]

Hmm, I don't know, Sacrificial Captives can work really well with a puppet empire. Constant wars against enemies means culture, while the puppets means no increased cultural coasts. I agree, though, that they are nice for other victories while keeping the policies going. Persia is similar in this way, the loooong Golden Ages give them a lot of culture while it is best suited (IMO) for domination, while it makes you want to get Great Artists, thus makes you build cultural buildings.

 

[Peasley]

Great Andes, what have they done to ya?

Sacrificial Captives: 10
Great Andean Road: 11
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 13
Achaemenid Legacy: 23

There is no advantage, economic or military, more lasting and powerful than the GAR. Faster trade routes which also cost you less means lots and lots of coin. Your units can fly through the hills to attack flanks. Most importantly, you will win.

Sacrificial Captives (total revised down because of an ignored post) is fun, sure, but certainly not as good in the long run with its proportionally diminishing returns. I wouldn't have ranked this over Phonetician Heritage.

 

[Karmah]

Sacrificial Captives: 11
Great Andean Road: 11
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 13
Achaemenid Legacy: 20
giving reason is starting to become a basic repetition of things said ...

I like the extra culture , I will be at war whatever happens coz at high difficulty level or MP someone always declare war on you so It is gonna be usefull
The legacy is ubergood , I m just downvoting because its score is too high compared to the others (those 4 left are very good anyway)

 

[Snoopaloop]

Sacrificial Captives: 11
Great Andean Road: 11
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 10
Achaemenid Legacy: 21

-3 Jade Hall: Yes, its long dead, but I prefer Ingenuity if I am going for a heavy science game.

+1 Achaemenid Legacy: The golden age war bonus can be random if you aren't planning it properly, and it is not always that easy to handle. On the other hand, the amazing movement bonus can be started at the precise moment you want with a great artist.

 

[iggymnrr]

Just giving my two cents on the Nobel Prize - which I upvoted for a long time - discussion:

Using Atilla to take over cities takes so that you need lesser votes? Well, if you are playing Atilla, you might take CSs/Civs early in the game and end up with some cities and some major unhappiness. Also, if you pretend to go on a Diplo win as Atilla, you will have a tough time gaining alliances against a Swedish player. Nobel Prize is much better at gaining alliances, and you don't have to sacrifice your scientists or engineers if you don't want, as you don't have to marry every CS as Austria nor you have to warry during golden ages as Persia. The good part is the versatility it provides: having a tough war? Then save this GG and try gifting the next one. You can always look for peace if you want to end the war and gain a CS instead of keeping warring.

Sweden against a marry-like Austria? First, some things: Austria doesn't have a bonus that grants them free-CS-alliances, for it to work they have to be allied. It will be harder for Austria to ally a CS that is allied with Sweden because they can instantly gain 90 influence! You can always take over Austria as well, with help of their near CSs. Nobel Prize is, for me, a top UA, and it is really good for what it aims for: hold that CSs so that Austria can't eat it. One more thing: if there is a bunch of guys like Atilla or Maria Theresa taking over/marrying the CSs, good for you! They will still need as many votes as you, and with Nobel Prize, you basically grant them. The less CSs needed to ally (if you aim a Diplo) the better, so you can use the GPs you don't need aswell.

(BTW, not in the subject, I started a new game as Persia and wow. Seriously, wow. My money is on them - now that NP is eliminated)

There is some confusion. First, going after a diplo win implies patronage when every civ will have 30 free influence with all CSes. Atilla is just a random choice. Each and every civ has 30 free influence and all CSes will be friends. A quest will bump a CS friend to ally and may do so for more than one CS. By the time the end is at hand for a diplo vote, a lot of CSes will be taken care of. Quests in general have made influence cheap.

I'm not sure why Sweden needs to worry about Austria. The diplo vote will be easier with fewer CSes so why stop Austria? Using a GP to slow up Austria is counter-productive.

 

[maurcus]

Sacrificial Captives: 12(+1)
Great Andean Road: 8(-3)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 10
Achaemenid Legacy: 21

SC, FTW i cant help but feel good knowing that my slaughtering of my foes is giving me boatloads of

GAR: myself and many others have already given reasons for this downvote, it is just to situational.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Taking the whole of the Aztecs into account, since you can't very well apply the UA only to a real game situation, I feel they are best suited for a domination or science victory, and I don't like them for culture at all.

The UA doesn't give enough extra culture to make them good at it as a VC, but it does give them enough to get a few extra policies, much like the French UA isn't about going for culture, in spite of giving it. The ideal way to use them (seems to be to be) is just different, with France doing best with their extra culture by building a wide sprawling empire and the Aztecs building tall.

In spire of the culture, those UA's don't scream cultural victory in the same way Songhai screams domination or Sweden, diplomacy.

I don't think it's like the french UA (which isn't for cultural) at all. They're not similar. That one is absolute and per civ, wheras the aztec one is better the taller you go (like the Siamese one), and thus is much better suited to cultural vc's. If you're doing science, wasn't the point to not take too many policies early so you can get through rationalism (+top of order) quick? The aztecs bonus is throughout the game, but best early, which doesn't help the science vc as much as it could. For a domination vc, it can work ok, but I'd much rather be Persian or Incan (or obviously chinese or many of the other warring ones). Aztecs can go for other vc's but it's best used for cultural. It's not even as versatile as GAR or AL as you need to decide what vc you'll be doing fairly early with SP's, and the choice comes quicker with Aztecs. Otherwise you don't commit and end up wasting the extra policies you get.

However, in terms of why I think it is good for cultural isn't its contibution to the last 10 policies, but in getting the growth of tradition up quicker, and reaching the good piety policies earlier. It then provides a bit of help with getting through freedom too. It's main help is not in the absolute purple points at end of game, but in helping in growing for wonders, and in getting the cultural discounts/buffs earlier. Even at the end, if you war right it can give a passable boost.

As said, I do really like SC, but it's now pretty rarefied air.

 

[woodshadows]

Sacrificial Captives: 12
Great Andean Road: 5
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 21

Great Andean road - situational and replicated by commerce tree and no use on plains, desert or island maps, also kind of boring and a bit of a crutch for players who don't know how to properly use their military units without having special hill jumping abilities.

Scholars of the Jade Hall - really the strongest UA imo, my favourite by a long shot, I haven't voted for it until now but since we're nearing the end.. science boosts everywhere, bonuses for planting great people or running specialists or building science buildings or wonders... fun fun.

 

[Gucumatz]

Sacrificial Captives: 9 (-3) - Don't get me wrong I love this UA - but it is still the weakest one left. It is situational, works optimaly on non "standard" conditions, and in MP the French UA can often do more than Sacrificial Captives. Its just the weakest UA left
Great Andean Road: 6 (+1) The least situational of all of the remaining UAs and probably the strongest [Jade Hall one could debate instead here]. Can be used from turn 0 to the final turn of the game. Provides the most momentum of any non science UA by far if you know how to use it [For those who prefer brute force rather than tactics - it makes sense why they may not like it, other grat tactical UAs include Persias (still running and Viking Fury - interesting to see who has voted those down continuously)]. And depending on your style can be much better than the Science UAs.

And also the commerce ability stacks with Inca's UA... the fact is most people build roads much earlier than when commerce comes out. In effect this part of the UA equals a free Paper Maker or higher for each city early on [considered one of the top 5 UBs in the other elim thread] because of the increased power of early gold early on [And later its not hard to be making 2x-3x the average gold per turn a civ would if you weren't the Inca by the time others open commerce].
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 21

 

[Cowhead]

Sacrificial Captives: 10 (+1)
Great Andean Road: 3 (-3)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 21

SC - You need to be at war or fighting of hordes of barbarians to reap the rewards of SC. So it suits my play style of the UAs left.

GAR - Very Good UA but is the most situational UA left. It relies on lots of hills on the map. If you end up in plains, desert heavy area or islands it just not as useful as it could be.

SotJH - Best Science UA left and only non situational UA

AL - Needs you to have a happy empire and some Great Artists help. But if you are happy and have a steady flow of GAs you become unstoppable. Probably will end up no.1.

 

[Petiscator]

Sacrificial Captives: 10
Great Andean Road: 0
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 22

Achaemenid Legacy: Great for war, great for gold, great for culture and helps production. One of the best UA - if not the best.

Great Andean Road: Really great UA. My problem is that I prefer Sacrificial Captives bonus on culture/war, Scholars of the Jade Hall bonus on Science and Achaemenid Legacy bonus on a lot of awesome things. As I stated before, it is not good on a flat/water map, and the routes take a lot of time to build - I even prefer the Great Warpath for this, because it is instantaneous.

About my Nobel Prize opinion: yes, if they are going diplo they will have taken patronage - but they need to pledge protection to be insta friends. The diference is that you can and will do that aswell, and you can and will take their quests aswell, you just have a huge bonus to overwhelm their normal way of getting alliances - which is very good, because you can get the aesthetics, pledge protection, take quests AND gift your GP to achieve huge levels of influence. You can get some early quests with the Honor policy: if CSs wants culture, gift the GG to Yerevan, if they want faith, gift it to Jerusalem, etc. The GP you gift can grant bonus that will help taking the quests. It is true that everybody can do them, but Sweden has a way to overwhelm it, lets say somebody got 50 influence because of a quest, and before that you both had the same amount of influence: gift that GP and now you have 40 influence more than them.Sorry about the Austria part, I read your comment quite fast and got something wrong

 

[woodshadows]

About my Nobel Prize opinion: yes, if they are going diplo they will have taken patronage - but they need to pledge protection to be insta friends. The diference is that you can and will do that aswell, and you can and will take their quests aswell, you just have a huge bonus to overwhelm their normal way of getting alliances - which is very good, because you can get the aesthetics, pledge protection, take quests AND gift your GP to achieve huge levels of influence. You can get some early quests with the Honor policy: if CSs wants culture, gift the GG to Yerevan, if they want faith, gift it to Jerusalem, etc. The GP you gift can grant bonus that will help taking the quests. It is true that everybody can do them, but Sweden has a way to overwhelm it, lets say somebody got 50 influence because of a quest, and before that you both had the same amount of influence: gift that GP and now you have 40 influence more than them.Sorry about the Austria part, I read your comment quite fast and got something wrong

that's exactly it. people say 'oh who cares if sweden can gift a great person to gain influence, anyone even attila can take patronage and complete quests to get just as much influence'. isn't it obvious though that in terms of raw ability to generate city state influence, sweden is near the top of the list? assuming sweden and any other civ (attila let's say) are completing the exact same quests, going the exact same policy trees, etc, sweden will have 1250gold worth of influence to buy anytime sweden gets a great person. i don't argue that gifting great people is necessarily 'super powerful' (since often those great people might put you in a better position to win than city state alliances), but that's beside the point, the argument is whether sweden gets an advantage in generating citystate influence and the answer is so obvious it's painful - it's a resounding YES. 90 influence (1250 gold worth) for every great person generated in a game (think of how many you generate in your average game) is enormous and the only civs who can really compete with that are gold-happy civs like the incas or persia, or Alexander (from the civs I can think of off the top of my head), possibly an argument could be made in favour of a cultural civ like france/aztecs, for quickly getting into patronage, but that's more of a stretch. 1250gold worth of influence for every great person - yes, attila can't compete with that to generate as much city state influence under conditions in which everything else is equal.

 

[Gucumatz]

Its interesting to compare these results to the Civilization elimination thread
[Civ first - then UA]
1. Korea - (1-3 in UA Comp)
2. Inca - 4 in UA Comp -2
3. Babylon - 13 in UA Comp -10
4. China - 8 in UA Comp -4
5. Maya - 22 in UA Comp [-17]
6. Arabia - 26 in UA Comp -20
7. Persia - (1-3 in UA Comp) +4 to 6
8. Siam - 15 in UA Comp -7
9. Netherland - 11 in UA Comp -2
10. Carthage - 9 In UA Comp +1
11. England - 6 in UA Comp +5
12. Ethiopia - 27 in UA Comp -15
13. Roman Empire - 12 in UA Comp +1 in UA Comp
14. Iroquois - 25 in UA Comp -11
15. Russia - 10 in UA Comp +5
16. Greece - 7 in UA comp +9
17. Aztec - (1-3 in UA Comp) +14 to 16
18. Ottoman Empire - 30 in UA Comp -12
19. France - 14 in UA Comp +5
20. Mongolia - 28 in UA Comp -8
21. Byzantium - 32 in UA Comp -11
22. Japan - 24 in UA Comp -2
23. Sweden - 5 in UA Comp [+18]
24. Egypt - 18 in UA Comp +6
25. Songhai - 16 in UA Comp [+9]
26. Denmark - 21 in UA Comp +5
27. America - 19 in UA Comp [+8]
28. Celts - 29 in UA Comp -1
29. Huns - 31 in UA Comp [-2]
30. Spain - 17 in UA Comp [+13]
31. Germany - 33 in UA Comp [-2]
32. Polynesia - 23 in UA Comp [+9 Better]
33. Austria - 20 in UA Comp [+13 better in UA]
34. India - Population Growth [Match]
========

All of the UA Votes have much more variation - and the Civ thread had like another 40 pages of discussion

Its interesting to see how the top Civs were given worse ratings on their UAs in this thread and worse civs were given higher ratings of their UAs in this thread. Just food for thought

 

[Crafty Bison]

Yeah, the one that really confuses me is the Aztecs. It's the only one with a massive jump up where both the other two unique things are both really good (and highly rated in heir threads). If their UA is top 3, and both their UU and UB did well two, how did they come so low in the civ thread? Bad synergy? Don't think so......

I mean there are other examples (Sweden and America) but they at least have a weak link (Hakka and B17) in terms of the vote. Hmm........

On the other side of things, Babylon seems to stand out. The UB or UU (since GnK) were both moderately rated, so how did the UA come somuch lower than the civ?

 

[Gucumatz]

So the overall top 10 civs with variation included

Cart - .5881
baby - .471
China - .375
Inca - .1765
Arabia - .941
Persia - .295
Siam - .676
Netherlands - .5882
England - .5
Rome - .735
Sweden - .824
Greece -.67647
Aztecs - .58824

So Top 10 Civs appear to be after these 2 samples are combined:
1. Korea
2. Inca
3. Persia
4. China
5. Babylon
6. England
7. Carthage
8. Netherlands
9. Aztecs
10. Siam

- Which means only one bumped out of top 10 from the Civ Elim thread is Arabia.

- Russia, Greece, Sweden don't make the top 10 overall from the UA Elim thread.

Also by post counts and variation within the thread - suggests that the Civ Elim thread is more accurate of overall views. Interesting statistical results - suggests certain civs were boosted in this thread particularly because of a smaller sample size and therefore less representative of the community [IE Sweden, Aztecs, Austria] while some negative results were probably less representative than what the community thinks [Arabia, Maya, Ethiopia, Iroquois, Babylon]

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Hey, if someone wouldn't mind, could they link me to the civ/ UU elimination threads?