Unique Ability Elimination Thread

[Crafty Bison]

So the overall top 10 civs with variation included

So Top 10 Civs appear to be after these 2 samples are combined:

Where's this data from? Wasn't the purpose of the civ thread to find the top civs? Dunno what a combination of the two proves, the UA is just a part of the whole civ, don't think you can amalgamate them.

 

[mposyncckh]

Sacrificial Captives: 10 +1
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 22 -3

Sacrificial Captives: As others have stated great UA because it allows for rapid development through any of the first 3 policy trees. Can make for a fun culture game where you don't have to turtle or can just provide supplication to another victory type. Also this is the funnest of the remaining victory types.
Achaemenid Legacy: Gives great military and culture benefits but I just think it is harder to make it work. With the great military bonus you can conquer large amounts of land which in turn lowers your happiness which lowers your overall golden age which lowers your later military. You can of course turtle up like a regular culture victory but then you negate a large part of the ability. Now that most great people do not provide golden ages it is just harder to get them. Using all the wonders and policies which give longer golden ages also just seems like an exploit which makes the game to easy
Sacrificial Captives: 11
Scholars of the Jake Hall: 11
Achaemenid Legacy: 19

 

[Gucumatz]

Where's this data from? Wasn't the purpose of the civ thread to find the top civs? Dunno what a combination of the two proves, the UA is just a part of the whole civ, don't think you can amalgamate them.

I could also include an amalgatioits of the Unique Units/Buildings threads - Overall it shows a fairly representative result though of major factors regarding the quality of civs factored in.

I suspect if UUs were also amalgated in along with UBs/UIs that Arabia would break the top 10 again [And probably push a Siam or a Netherlands out].

The stats are just an amalgation to show respective averages and the position they reached in each thread.

 

[Gucumatz]

So the overall top 10 civs with variation included

Cart - .5881
baby - .471
China - .375
Inca - .1765
Arabia - .941
Persia - .295
Siam - .676
Netherlands - .5882
England - .5
Rome - .735
Sweden - .824
Greece -.67647
Aztecs - .58824

So Top 10 Civs appear to be after these 2 samples are combined:
1. Korea
2. Inca
3. Persia
4. China
5. Babylon
6. England
7. Carthage
8. Netherlands
9. Aztecs
10. Siam

- Which means only one bumped out of top 10 from the Civ Elim thread is Arabia.

- Russia, Greece, Sweden don't make the top 10 overall from the UA Elim thread.

Also by post counts and variation within the thread - suggests that the Civ Elim thread is more accurate of overall views. Interesting statistical results - suggests certain civs were boosted in this thread particularly because of a smaller sample size and therefore less representative of the community [IE Sweden, Aztecs, Austria] while some negative results were probably less representative than what the community thinks [Arabia, Maya, Ethiopia, Iroquois, Babylon]

And as the two lists had the same number of entries I just weighted the two equally and added their averages to produce a "putty" effect to compare overall in these cases.

I didn't include UUs in the sample combo or UBs/UIs because I would have to create a different weighting formula because would take 1. Too long 2. Be more subject to discrepancies.

 

[swishizzle]

Sacrificial Captives: 8 (-3)
Scholars of the Jake Hall: 12 (+1)
Achaemenid Legacy: 19

As I said the last time I down-voted SC, I don't think it's a bad ability, I don't really like waging wars so I don't get much use from it. Also, I don't think it's nearly as good as the other two.

While I think both Scholars and Legacy are great, I went with Scholars because science is just so good. I love getting Cathedrals and working that specialist early for the extra and which can lead to an early GA to either pop a golden age or be settled for a +6 +2 tile (which will eventually be +12 because you're going to go Freedom 9/10 times).

I actually think that, overall, AL is stronger, but Korea's it a lot more specialized and involves a bit more micromanaging, which I like.

EDIT: Didn't read all of mposyncckh's post to see the actual scores at the bottom

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Sacrificial Captives: 9
Scholars of the Jake Hall: 12
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

I've repeated myself too many times. Also I'm really suprised at these end results.

 

[iggymnrr]

that's exactly it. people say 'oh who cares if sweden can gift a great person to gain influence, anyone even attila can take patronage and complete quests to get just as much influence'. isn't it obvious though that in terms of raw ability to generate city state influence, sweden is near the top of the list? assuming sweden and any other civ (attila let's say) are completing the exact same quests, going the exact same policy trees, etc, sweden will have 1250gold worth of influence to buy anytime sweden gets a great person. i don't argue that gifting great people is necessarily 'super powerful' (since often those great people might put you in a better position to win than city state alliances), but that's beside the point, the argument is whether sweden gets an advantage in generating citystate influence and the answer is so obvious it's painful - it's a resounding YES. 90 influence (1250 gold worth) for every great person generated in a game (think of how many you generate in your average game) is enormous and the only civs who can really compete with that are gold-happy civs like the incas or persia, or Alexander (from the civs I can think of off the top of my head), possibly an argument could be made in favour of a cultural civ like france/aztecs, for quickly getting into patronage, but that's more of a stretch. 1250gold worth of influence for every great person - yes, attila can't compete with that to generate as much city state influence under conditions in which everything else is equal.

In principle I agree with what was said. But most games end with surplus influence as it is. 20 extra influence over the next competitor at the end is waste of 19 influence. Attempting to buy a diplo election is also variable. 20 influence may be enough for 1 CS, 35 for another and maybe 85 for some other. Considering that influence has a shelf of 1 turn at the end for a diplo win, 90 influence on one CS is wasteful. There is no way to spread that 90 influence around. It has to go all one and only one CS. During the game is another problem. Which GP is going to be donated? A merchant when a trade mission and buy influence may be better? A scientist? An engineer? An Artist? A prophet? Even GGs and Admirals may not be so easy to part with. If I had my druthers, I'd donate captured AI prophets.

 

[ajsciri4]

Sacrificial Captives: 6 (-)
Scholars of the Jake Hall: 13 (+)
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

Sacrificial captives is pretty good, but the cultural addition doesn't make up for how much extra science you can get with SJH.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Sacrificial Captives: 7
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 10
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

Sacrificial Captives, I've already made my case for, it is a major boost in culture if you plan around it. It can help a person get quite a few extra SP's, particularly early, and keep up with an expanding empire even late. It can push you to complete a tree earlier than anyone else, giving you those bonuses sooner, and you can benefit extra from getting exp on units early, more than just having those upgraded units, also having more culture to show for it.

I'm not sure how Scholars of the Jade Hall has made it this far. It's decent science, but not overwhelming. It's a nice boost, but, as I said before and I'll say again now, if a UA is simply a boost to what I'm already doing, and isn't strong enough to make me consider doing something different, why should it be here?

Sacrificial Captives is good enough to encourage a tall start. Achaemenid Legacy is good enough to make me search out golden ages. Scholars of the Jade Hall is good enough to make me...use specialists and build science buildings? Nope, doesn't change a thing, just adds to what I'd do with anyone. I won't use any more specialists, nor will I look to build science buildings I normally wouldn't (I'd want them all anyway). If it isn't strong enough to make me consider something different, it doesn't deserve to be over UA's that do.

 

[woodshadows]

In principle I agree with what was said. But most games end with surplus influence as it is. 20 extra influence over the next competitor at the end is waste of 19 influence. Attempting to buy a diplo election is also variable. 20 influence may be enough for 1 CS, 35 for another and maybe 85 for some other. Considering that influence has a shelf of 1 turn at the end for a diplo win, 90 influence on one CS is wasteful. There is no way to spread that 90 influence around. It has to go all one and only one CS. During the game is another problem. Which GP is going to be donated? A merchant when a trade mission and buy influence may be better? A scientist? An engineer? An Artist? A prophet? Even GGs and Admirals may not be so easy to part with. If I had my druthers, I'd donate captured AI prophets.

for this it would come down to what difficulty you're playing and what size map, I find I have to keep my influence at around 250+ min to fend off coups/competition and if I'm playing a larger map it can become extremely expensive trying to maintain alliances with multiple city states, especially on Immortal/Deity. i agree that sweden's UA has some severe flaws, such as I don't generally want to have to gift most great people., which is why I prefer Greece for a diplomacy civ

 

[Nosceteipsum]

Sacrificial Captives: 8 (+1)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 7(-3)
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

SC: I feel the need to defend my favorite civ here. Sacrifical captives fits so well with a warmonger civ that is so good at killing units if you carry those woodsmen and healing promotions through the game. Especially when playing a defensive culture game around your start bias jungle tiles.

SJH: Someone's gotta go. It's a good UA but I don't think I would have put it in the top 3.

 

[woodshadows]

Sacrificial Captives: 8 (+1)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 7(-3)
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

SC: I feel the need to defend my favorite civ here. Sacrifical captives fits so well with a warmonger civ that is so good at killing units, if you carry those woodsmen and healing promotions through the game. Especially when playing a defensive culture game around your start bias jungle tiles.

that jungle start bias should almost be considered part of the aztec UA, having jungle tiles is so great for science and culture (with the pantheon) and has great synergy with the jaguar, it's probably my favourite part of playing the Aztecs, nearly guaranteed a heavy jungle start

 

[Nosceteipsum]

that jungle start bias should almost be considered part of the aztec UA, having jungle tiles is so great for science and culture (with the pantheon) and has great synergy with the jaguar, it's probably my favourite part of playing the Aztecs, nearly guaranteed a heavy jungle start

Commerce, rationalism, pantheon and trading posts makes for ridiculously powerful jungle tiles. In fact, the science edge can let you forgo piety and still have a competitive culture if you have an advanced military and are a dick about it because of (drumroll) sacrificial captives!

 

[Crafty Bison]

Sacrificial Captives: 5
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 8
Achaemenid Legacy: 16

SC: Start sandwiched between Greece and Rome, and SC will shine for you. Start on a small continent with only a range based defensive army for company, and, saving crutch like barb farming, it’s gonna be tough to get much from the UA. If we’re considering the start bias, jungle start takes ages to get good tiles working, and the start is regularly very slow. It’s good, but up against 2 heavyweights.

SoJH: It’s not fancy, it’s just really, really super strong. Only a slight change in strategy, but it’s just plain too powerful to ignore.

 

[iggymnrr]

Sacrificial Captives: 2 (-3)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 8
Achaemenid Legacy: 17 (+1)

AL: Returning to my first up-vote. I don't expect this thread to last another cycle.

SC: I'm tired but I'm guessing this in Monty. I like the UB better, the UA is okay but I think I have to go with SotJH for runner up.

 

[crawf0rd]

Sacrificial Captives: 3 (+1)
Scholars of the Jade Hall: 5 (-3)
Achaemenid Legacy: 17

Sacrificial captives can be abused so well, with such success, that it deserves to be in the top two.

Sotjh is just boring. Magic RAs? Meh. Better specialists? Meh. Better GP improvements? Meh. Stick em all together and they make a good UA. Apart, they are just regular.

 

[Mesin]

Sacrificial Captives:0 (-3)
Scholars of the Jade Hall:6 (+1)
Achaemenid Legacy: 17

Versus the other two abilities Sacrificial Captives didn't hold up. Don't get me wrong, I personally enjoy it, and it's really fun to use.

Scholars of the Jade Hall probably won't win, but I always love science.

 

[woodshadows]

Scholars of the Jade Hall: 7
Achaemenid Legacy: 14

science is pretty much king in CiV and korea is probably best at it.

having to rely on golden ages to take advantage of your UA is kind of annoying, it forces you into harvesting great artists and focusing on happiness.. not very fun and then you end up in wars you feel you have a time limit on to enjoy your bonus in. i also hate the mcdonalds colours.

 

[BrotherInJah]

Scholars of the Jade Hall: 8
Achaemenid Legacy: 11

SOJH: I don't wanna repeat myself and there is no more options..
AL: Latly i have big problem to be at + with happiness. No way i can accumulate this to golden age.. no GA no UA for me..

 

[swishizzle]

Scholars of the Jade Hall: 5 (-3)
Achaemenid Legacy: 12 (+1)

While I up-voted Scholars of the Jade Hall yesterday, I did say that I thought Achaemenid Legacy was overall stronger. Playing as Persia again today definitely sealed the deal for me. I was easily in a Golden Age more than I wasn't and had the extra funds/culture to rush science buildings and plow through Rationalism, which, coupled with the other benefits, seems better than SOJH in my opinion.

Edit: Does voting go by next day or 24 hours? It's nearly 2am here and I voted around 2pm yesterday. I apologize if I'm breaking the rules; negate my votes if so.