Unit-loss due to flips.

[Rik Meleet]

I do not think it is realistic if a city which I've just captured "kills" all my military units when it flips. Let's say I've captured a size 6 city and garrison it with 7 Infantry, 10 tanks that are healing there and I've positioned 8 bombers there. Although the flip chance is not so really big, it happens (too) often the city does flip, virtually "killing" all my units in the city.

This is just not realistic and it's crippling and it has led to adjusted gameplay (starving, wait outside the city to recapture etc.). This can be improved a lot. Some ideas I have on this:
- Landunits (Inf / tanks in my example) -> should be heaviliy damaged (redlined) and about 25% or even 50% are destroyed, The survivors must be relocated to either a tile close to the city, or on neutral gorund or inside my cultural borders. And they should have no movement points left. This mimics the destruction and hastily panicky fleeing of the armies, loosing some of them on the way.
- Planes -> Should be destroyed, or a small number should make it to safety; relocated to a nearby city or the capital. The percentage of surviving aircraft can be about 25%.
- Other units (workers, cannons etc.). They are captured. This represents the fleeing army leaving stuff behind they can't carry.

Just think about it; if the defending units in a city couldn't prevent me from capturing it, why should mere citizens be able to destroy every single unit I place in the city ??

 

[Mgoering]

You're right. Killing every ones isn't realistic, especially when you have stacked a lot of units and that the city isn't big.

 

[Dell19]

I think I would rather just see all units that weren't red lined to begin with return to the capital with all redlined units being destroyed. Also armies should have no chance of being destroyed in such a way unless perhaps they have 1 hit point left. Planes could be destroyed but I would like to see some artillary returned as if I had a huge stack of artillary in a city waiting for my other troops to heal I would dislike it if I lost them all.

 

[Mgoering]

Just have an idea. Since a flip does put one of strongest defensive unit in the city (with level 3). The attack isn't big at all. I think it should actually take 1 hit point per citizen, beginning with the weakest. and the weakest, because it is the citizen that attack.
For example, you have 3 units in that a level 8 city. One has 5 hits, another has 4 and the last one has 1. The third and the second one are destroyed and the first one is set behind the border, with 2 hit points. Something like. How about ?

 

[Dell19]

A possible problem with that is that the units returned would largely be at full health so they could immediately reattack and take the city. Thats why I feel it would be better for the majority of units to retreat with low health so that they can reused later bt not straight away.

 

[Mojotronica]

I'd favor having all ground units redlined and transported to the capital or nearest friendly city. Planes and ships destroyed, capturable units captured.

 

[dmanakho]

I agree that it is not realistic when all units are lost during the flips.
But here is my point of view.
Why do we as human players want to make our lifes so much easier. This suggestion clearly helps human player only not AI.
We love Civ because it is not trivial and it takes some challenge to win. THings like citi flips, civil unrest, anarchies make game a little unpredictable and more challenging.
Why would you want to make yourself an easier life, huh??? It's fun when you beat AI but it is also more fun when it is hard to beat AI.
What firaxis probably could do to please everybody is to make this feature configurable through the game options. Currently we can check or uncheck city flipping option, but i reckon we can have another check box that would destroy all or save some of units during the flips.

 

[Mojotronica]

I like city flipping but I can see why people get annoyed with it. It seems arbitrary to lose any number of units in a flipped city regardless of the cities' population etc... It's possible that player's distaste for the current system will undermine the entire concept of city flipping in the next version.

A compromise might have the same effect without alienating players who see flipping as it is currently as terribly unfair. I would prefer a simple solution to a complicated one. The best compromise, in my opinion, is redlining the ground units stationed in the city instead of destroying them. That puts them out of commission for at least a turn. And, if moved to a vulnerable border city, provides one's rivals the possibility of wiping them out -- but only through conventional (and uncontroversial) military means.

All that said the current system works fine as is. The ulcer I've developed worrying about my cities flipping is my problem, and is not Firaxis' fault. I wouldn't be bothered if flipping stayed the same in the next version.

 

[BassDude726]

I think the current system of losing units due to a flip does make some sense considering the concept of the city's defense. I think the units you place in a city function mainly to protect against outside threats, not internal ones. For example, a single fortified veteran infantry unit can defend against a pretty determined external attack (assuming they're not tanks or MAs). But that same infantry unit takes many turns to quell resistance, or simply gets overwhelmed when the city flips. So while they do deal with internal threats (as military police or whatever), they do not do so nearly as effectively as their defensive ratings would suggest.

Perhaps introducing a separate military police unit would help keep recently captured cities under your control more effectively?

 

[Rik Meleet]

@Bassdude: I agree the units don't do so well against threats from the inside than from the outside, but they should have some effect. Especially units with a higher def. than att. should have impaqt. Because they do have some I suggested that a %-age of them do survive. The Infantry act as MP in non-captured cities, so why not in captured cities ??
@Mojotronica: Flipping is something I don't get annoyed with and even like, since it is realistic (see what happens in Iraq). What I do not like and try to get improved is that every single unit is vanished, without a chance to escape. Perhaps I am overresponding to the fact that recently in a game of Sengoku the city in which my Diamyo was, flipped: Game Over.
@dmanakho: If this increases the benefit humans have over the AI, then it's not what I want. But frankly I don't think it is really that way. There are strategies only the human player uses (starvation / moving all military out to recapture / building settlers to abandon it / etc.) and the AI doesn't. You could have said the same thing if I'd proposed the opposite.
@Dell: In my porposal was "redlined" and "no movement points left". They shouldn't be able to recapture immediately.
@Mgoering: That makes starving cities even more beneficial. I'd prefer to keep it random with a %-age.