Unit Production vs. Teching advice?

[Turem Bain]

One of the ongoing issues Ive been having with Civ is that I always find myself the target of the AI no matter how technologically advanced my armies may be.

I am currently trying to get into Monarch difficulty. I have found it easy to compete until the Middle Ages where I seem to simply get overrun by the AI's. In the last game I played I was more advanced than anyone else, my armies were all the best they could be, and I was seemingly well defended... yet the rampaging Ai decided that I was a better target than the other computer players that were by far less advanced or capable than I.

What am I to do?

I do not waste time with wonders since I find it more appealing to actually build things than waste the time on advances that will inevitably be built faster by the AI. They always beat me to em... always.

I always have about 3 workers per city... just doin their thing.

I play Greeks a lot so that I can actually get through prehistory without being harassed. This also affects my build order.. which usually goes somthing like this: Phalanx, Phalanx, Library, Temple, Marketplace, Granary, Colleseum, Aquaduct. Pepper in a few offensive units and workers and this build order usually takes a city well into the Middle Ages.

I jsut can't beat the AI... I dont know why and Its frustrating seeing people continually beat the AI (in the GOTM's) in any veriety of ways before 1400AD!!! Im stunned when I see a space race victory that soon...

Im stuck in mediocrity and I dont seem to be getting anywhere fast. If someone can help me out with some advice please do... ask specific questions as to what Im doing if you could? May be that will help with my specific problems...

I have my last saved game where I was uber tech master (laughing at the inferior AI technologies) and still got HAXORD by the AI... if you wanna crit my game.

anyone...?

 

[knacki]

I'm not really an expert, but since I don't build spears anymore from the very beginning of a game, it's easier to compete in military strength with AI. I guess AI always attack u cause u don't have enough units, guess it's only reasoning according to the size and not to the value of ur army..

I build a lot warriors cause it's really cheap, and one warrior is a in ur city, or he can explore... Then archers for some early rampaging in AI territory : I choose a target very quick (often he's the leader in score) build a lot of archers and go destroy / take some of his cities. Just an example in case other AI would like to visit my territory.

The answer of ur problem is in the game : listen to what ur military advisor tell you when u want to disband a unit

 

[DragonRunner]

Did you have the AI aggression up high?

 

[Arathorn]

A few things:

- When one civ attacks you, get alliances with the other civs against the one that attacked you. Let them do some of the fighting.
- Get some tactical intelligence -- with even similiar techs, you should be in a position to kill off an AI invasion nearly every time.
- Build barracks. Veteran fighters are much superior to regulars.
- Don't build every improvement in every city. Think before you build -- do I need happiness here -- do I *need* a colosseum (answer is usually no)? What could I build instead?
- Are you upgrading? Units do get obsolete. Without barracks (not listed), you can't upgrade so your army may be laughably out of date.
- Be more willing to trade with the AI so they don't need to attack you to get what they want. Trade not only helps your position economically, it's often quite valuable militaristically.

Finally, if you're always losing militarily, I'd take it as a hint to build more military.

Arathorn

 

[dze27]

It sounds to me like you may be building too many defensive units. The AI is more scared of offense than defense. I generally don't build many defensive units until Infantry. I'd rather have the flexibility of an offensive force, which can both attack, and counter-attack, especially with the help of artillery, on defense. Are you using lots of artillery? Are you picking the right battles to fight? Check the Combat Calculator online to make sure the odds are in your favor as much as possible when you fight.

Arathorn's point about building what you *need* is critical. I've seen a number of savegames of players who are building colosseums in towns with (say) 3 happy workers.

 

[BassDude726]

Bump up your shield production more... concentrate on a few core cities near your capital with lots of hills to get those shields. Build a barracks in a couple of them and make them offensive-unit factories. The AI will think twice about messing with you if you have the ability to field an effective offensive army.

 

[dmanakho]

Change your built order...

for core cities build barracks 1st.
Never build colliseums, those are useless in 99.99999% of a time.
If you need culture I favor libraries before temples. Try to manage citizen moods with luxury slider and try to get hold of lux resources, if you don't have them, fight for them.
Always check with you MA. If he says your military is weak comparing to your neighbor next door, that means you are waiting to be attacked any turn now.

Trade, Trade, Trade if you trading with AI you are less likely to be attacked.
if you buy a tech from AI on gpt basis you are less likely to be attacked.
If your military is average to strong you are relatively safe to sign RoP. You will be less prone to attack by AI you have RoP with, but there are cases when AI sneak attacks you. But latter usually happens when you leave one or more cities undefended and scouting AI spearman decides to take it over in a sneak attack.

and the last suggestion - keep cranking more attacking units - the more the better.

 

[Turem Bain]

Thanks for all the advice.

In responce,

1. I make it a point to have as advanced a military as possible. In most of my games I time my "selling of technology to other civs" with my gunpowder (and other similar) advance(s) so that I have the money to upgrade.

So Im inclined to believe that its the number of active offensive military I have at my disposal. I usually have a decent military, but admitedly I never have a huge military. I suppose that could very well be my problem. In the past Ive lost games due to having a large military and switching to either a Republic or a Democracy becasue units cost so much. Perhaps its a belance that I need to find there.

2. Many of you made the point that a colleseum isnt usually necessary or even wanted. I'm not to sure how you guys handle revolting citys. Its one of the hardest thigns to deal with and may be Ive payed to much attention to that aspect of the game. In my estimation I try NEVER to have a revolt. Its just to much money and production out the window. I feal like its a terrible wasit to ahve a city that revolts all the time. Also, Colloseums pump a city's culture to boot...

3. I gather that many of you also dont build defensive units very often... seemingly never at all. I am amazed at this to tell the truth. Perhaps its because I love to play the Greeks (phalanx), but NOT building any defense sounds crazy to me. Could you guys please elaborate? Is it simplyt the fact that the AI sees an offensive unit as a threat no matter what (which could say that there are units that are AI marked as 'offensive', 'defensive', & 'support) and takes that into account?

Im not sure what to think about this... but I am going to try a more offensive unit based production. I figure that if the AI is worried about offensive units, then I should give it somethign to worry about. My only concern is the cost! Really what that means is that I am not Teching as fast since I am paying my military so much money and I suppose that, in turn, I will have to find the balance between military and teching... or I loose the tech race and the game along with it.

ugh...

 

[dmanakho]

Thanks for all the advice.

Many of you made the point that a colleseum isnt usually necessary or even wanted. I'm not to sure how you guys handle revolting citys. Its one of the hardest thigns to deal with and may be Ive payed to much attention to that aspect of the game. In my estimation I try NEVER to have a revolt. Its just to much money and production out the window. I feal like its a terrible wasit to ahve a city that revolts all the time. Also, Colloseums pump a city's culture to boot...

Use luxury tax slider and Marketplaces+Luxuries and you won't need those expensive colloseums.

3. I gather that many of you also dont build defensive units very often... seemingly never at all.
ugh...

I think most of us do build defensive units. It's just a number of offensive units usually 5 to 6 times higher than offensive ones.
Oh.. Did i mention that infantry is my most favorite unit in this game period.

 

[erickcid]

dmanakho: besides being beautiful too look at, Infantry possess incredible luck.

 

[denyd]

Turem: Most games normally start with a couple of warriors for scouting and once you have barracks, pumping out a warrior every couple of turns so will lead to a decent size army of swordsmen (once you pay the upgrade cost). I normally start building spearmen to relieve my swords of garrison duty as they are cheaper and have a use until the end of the game. Having 12-15 warriors to upgrade to swordsmen is normally enough to take out your weakest neighbor, which leads to more land.

As for building colleseums, normally a couple of luxuries & a marketplace will keep town (size <= 6) content. Add a temple and a couple more luxuries and a city (size <=12) will be content. If you expect war weariness or want metropolis (size > 12) then add a cathedral. I normally try for Bach's Cathedral to add to the ease of managing cities. As for the culture end of colleseums, I've found that I'm better off add a cathedral, which has it's effects doubled with Sistine or buying that extra luxury (or even adjusting the slider) than building colleseums.

As for advanced military, I try to upgrade my veteran attackers (saving the eiltes for red-lined opponents) as money permits. I normally wait until a town is threatened to upgrade the defender, until Marines (or Berserks) are available. My normal game goals are:
1. Expand to grab as much land and as many resources as possible
2. Kill off my weakest neighbor
3. Repeat #2 until the entire land mass is under my control
4. Reposition my defense force for one for each coastal city
5. Disband extra defenders
6. Once Medieval Infantry is no longer effective disband all except elites
7. Once my primary land mass has significant rails in place, I create a small mobile (knights or cavalry) attack force to remove any trespassers.

It's not the optimum plan and it's not effective in all games, so there's a need to be flexible and adapt to the situation, but it is a good place to start from.

 

[Turem Bain]

My normal beginning of the game "expansion build order" is usually hoplite, settler, hoplite, settler, hoplite, etc etc... This allows for a hoplite to follow the settler every time. Also, Its fast...1 city, then 2, then 4, then 8, etc etc. Baring bad land resources, cities can normally do this, but then it gets to the expansion to borders thing... and its all about building libraries, temples, and workers.

From what I am gathering, as I said above, my building/production "ideal" lacks offensive military. In almost every example that you guys have given me there has been a large amount of offensive units involved in the explanation. WAY MORE than I ever build... so thats it then. More offense.

I guess its true what they say about the best defense...

Thank you all for the help. May be sometime soon Ill get into the GOTMs, but to be honest I think thats gonna be a while.

 

[dze27]

3. I gather that many of you also dont build defensive units very often... seemingly never at all. I am amazed at this to tell the truth. Perhaps its because I love to play the Greeks (phalanx), but NOT building any defense sounds crazy to me. Could you guys please elaborate? Is it simplyt the fact that the AI sees an offensive unit as a threat no matter what (which could say that there are units that are AI marked as 'offensive', 'defensive', & 'support) and takes that into account?

Check Study of Inner Workings of Military Advisor by ProPain for info on the Military Advisor's calculations. This gives the formula for calculating military strength (as you see in the F3 Military Advisor) which weights an attacking unit as 1.5 times attack strength but a defensive unit is calculated as 1 times defense strength.

Now, in the specific case of the Greeks, if you build 3 Hoplites that would cost you 60 shields you get 9 "points" from this part of the calculation, i.e. defense 3 times modifier 1 times 3 units = 9. Or, you could build 2 Swordsmen for 60 shields and get 9 points that way too, i.e. attack 3 times modifier 1.5 times 2 units = 9. So it's a moot point in your case, but if you substitute a regular Spearman in, it would only get 6 points due its defense 2. In almost all other cases if you run this calculation you will see that you get more military strength by building attacking units.

Attacking units are more versatile and scare the AI more due to this calculation.

 

[kb2tvl]

One of the ongoing issues Ive been having with Civ is that I always find myself the target of the AI no matter how technologically advanced my armies may be.

I stopped reading shortly after this... The assumption is that tech = strength.... Explain how hords or inferior units beat you? Did quantity have it's own qualtiy?

 

[CyberChrist]

Technical superiority might win you the wars, but only a large military force will make the AI think twice about going to war. I don't even think the AI takes what your strongest unit is into consideration, but if it does then it is only a very small factor.

 

[knacki]

I stopped reading shortly after this... The assumption is that tech = strength.... Explain how hords or inferior units beat you? Did quantity have it's own qualtiy?

Problem is even if inferior AI units are not really a threat for ur technology advanced defensive units, sometimes it's just a PITA when AI declares war on you, cause it's not what u want at that particular time (while u're focusing on expansion or building in ur empire). These units can harass u, pillage ur improvements, and slow ur development a lot, allowing other civs to develop much faster than you.
IMO a war that may be good for you is always a war that u planned to start / get started.

 

[Rammstein]

The AI doesn't consider the worth of modern weaponry - only pure numbers. That's the impression you get when a Longbowman attacks your tank.

 

[erickcid]

rammstein: I would agree. The valid range in the editor is 0-1000 for the attack/defense values. Although the apparent disparity between certain units values seems large, under consideration of the full legal range, the strange results make a bit more sense. Oddly the range was not explored more fully, nor was use of extra hit points made. I suspect this was to give severely lagging civs a fighting chance.

 

[Tomoyo]

The AI doesn't consider the worth of modern weaponry - only pure numbers. That's the impression you get when a Longbowman attacks your tank.

My longbowmen have taken out many tanks. Even got a leader once.

 

[Samson]

2. Many of you made the point that a colleseum isnt usually necessary or even wanted. I'm not to sure how you guys handle revolting citys. Its one of the hardest thigns to deal with and may be Ive payed to much attention to that aspect of the game. In my estimation I try NEVER to have a revolt. Its just to much money and production out the window. I feal like its a terrible wasit to ahve a city that revolts all the time. Also, Colloseums pump a city's culture to boot...

The way I look at temples and colleseums is that pre marketplaces, they take up one gold per happy face. That gold could just as well be used to make the face directly. The only place I would want temples is my border cities, that have higher corruptiuon (so lower commerce therfore lux tax per pop) and more need of culture. Unfortunatly, these are also the hardest cities to get anything in, so I do not tend to get to build then at all in the early game :-( I am no great player, and may be missing something though. In my pressent game (islands, to culture flips on the border were not an issue) I have 1/40 of the culture of the leading civ.

Thje way to stop cities revolting is to check f1 every turn before you hit enter, and have a mod that makes it easy to check how many happy / sad pops there are in each city. Then you WILL never have a revolt

HTH.