Unit request: Ogre(no, a different kind of Ogre)

[Iron Beagle]

I swore I would never bug the people here with unit requests. I know we are all very busy people. But I simply cannot resist.

A while back, bhiita made the following thread, in which he was working on a massive tank, a "land battleship" as he called it:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110136

Sadly, he seems to have abandoned us. I have not heard anything about any progress being made on this unit.

The proposed unit reminded me of an old computer game called Ogre, a science fiction war game about nearly unstoppable nuclear-armed supertanks of the same name.



This unit is very unique and I think that many of us would enjoy it. Tanks have become the very symbol of modern warfare, and while a tank this size would never be practical(future tanks will be smaller, not bigger) its presence could add great fun to the game. I mean who doesn't want to crush their enemies beneath the treads of a titanic, rolling death machine?

If any of the unit creators could either pick up where bhiita left off, or create a new "supertank" unit in the same spirit(such as the Ogre), I would be very grateful.

 

[drzoidberg]

The proposed unit reminded me of an old computer game called Ogre, a science fiction war game about nearly unstoppable nuclear-armed supertanks of the same name.

It's also an even older board game made by Peter Jacksson games. I think it's from late 70'ies or early 80'ies.

 

[Bjornlo]

The Doctor is right. I remember playing this in the late 70's. 1976-78 time period.

 

[FinnMcCool]

I second that request!

In fact, Beagle, you might find my request for this very unit waaay back awhile ago, when one of the skilled unit makers here threw out a kind of "request contest" (I think) and I threw my hat in with a Mk V. I don't think the maker even recognized it. Not sure if I included a link to SJ Games Inc, and I could here, but...

Yeah. Steve Jackson Games (used to be Metagaming Concepts) won all the early game awards for his new genre: the microgame. A pocket-sized package you could carry around (it was a lot cooler than a pocket-protector) and play on your lunch hour. It was so popular he expanded it, and by now it has full campaign-sized scenarios. But as far as I know, it hasn't been programmed as a "computer game" (if it has, PLEEEEASE let me know where I could download it!) Even now, the diehard players are programming email interfaces, mostly, I think.

But the game was a fargin' BLAST! Ground-effect Vehicles, tactical nuclear missiles and Howitzers, advanced armor, and of course, THE OGRE.

Stadium-sized AI-controlled "Continental Seige Unit" as they were called. One player would choose his forcepool, a complete Regiment, mixed with standard Armor, Infantry, Personell Carriers, etc, and the other player had ONE UNIT. But it was an Ogre. And it was an even match.

 

[Iron Beagle]

ANYBODY else?

We have all kinds of dragons, dinosaurs, angels, demons, centaurs, mythical creatures, things out of comic books, giant club-wielding rats, the Alien, lizard people, giant robots of every description, the entire inventory of Star Wars and Star Trek accounted for but yet we have NO GIANT TANK!

Really I hoped more people would be interested in this. I think it would be very cool.

 

[FinnMcCool]

One important comment: I am not a unit maker. At least yet. I tried once, the Tesla Missile, but it wouldn't work. Too many things to keep track of, palette, transparency, sizing, so I've been enjoying the very good units already made.

But if no one else builds this, I might give up my spare time to learn how. If anyone can recommend the tutorial that will teach me how to SIZE a unit graphic correctly, I'd be grateful.

I notice that the Trebuchet graphic goes WAY out of field, into neighboring squares when it launches its projectile. This gives me some confidence, since the Ogre would have to be much larger than 1 square in size. Like the Panzer, squeezing over the edges of the square it's in, the Ogre would have to be huge.


By The Way: anybody out there read Keith Laumer's BOLO series? That's what we're talking about.

 

[Bjornlo]

One important comment: I am not a unit maker. At least yet. I tried once, the Tesla Missile, but it wouldn't work. Too many things to keep track of, palette, transparency, sizing, so I've been enjoying the very good units already made.

But if no one else builds this, I might give up my spare time to learn how. If anyone can recommend the tutorial that will teach me how to SIZE a unit graphic correctly, I'd be grateful.

I notice that the Trebuchet graphic goes WAY out of field, into neighboring squares when it launches its projectile. This gives me some confidence, since the Ogre would have to be much larger than 1 square in size. Like the Panzer, squeezing over the edges of the square it's in, the Ogre would have to be huge.


By The Way: anybody out there read Keith Laumer's BOLO series? That's what we're talking about.

What program are you going to be working in? I'm hardly an expert, as I am still making plenty of mistakes myself. But I know the basics. The tool I know best (though there are plenty that know it better then me) is the cheap-o Bryce, costs all of 40-60 depending on where you buy it and if it is on sale or not.
Wyrmshadow is probably the definitive unit creation expert on this tool; I know I've never seen anyone better. He has given me a few pointers to speed up (simplify) my unit creation. Some of what I learned and have been shown would apply to most applications. I've made two units the brute force way (Photoshop) and would not reccommend that level of sweat and pain to anyone.
The unit size, in a 3d program is scalable.
There are also tutorials on some of the free programs, such as Blender. The advantage of a MESH making program such as Blender (3ds max, Lightwave, etc) is that even if you animate it in Bryce is that it is in the end easier. Bryce can be used to make some simple object, but this engine:

Is fairly close to the limit of detailing an item can have.. The problem is how the program works (in booleans). Also this simple item is like 130,000 polygons or more.. and maybe 200 seperate items.
Let me know what you will be using, and I will see what I can do to help. Since help will be somewhat tool dependent.

 

[FinnMcCool]

I'm embarrassed to say what I'm using. Only Paintshop Pro 9 and Animationshop 3. AS3 lets me view all the units fine; but when I tried to create the Tesla Missile, I was merely taking a pre-existing unit and graphing over it; but I hit a param obstacle.

PSP9 lets me do everything I need to make fixed graphics, and I've taken very seriously my plan to redo ALL civpedia icons to adopt a new standard. I'm tired of all the buildings and wonders looking the same.


I looked at Utahjazz's tutorial briefly, and it made me cringe. LOTS of programs needed, and I don't have any of them; even worse, some of them aren't demo/freeware. I don't want to think of my budget just to put out a graphic of the most awesome tank unit in existence, when by all rights, the already-expert unit makers should have come up with the idea...

C'mon. A BOLO! That'd be cool, no???

 

[Bjornlo]

The other programs you'd need are all freeware.
Utahjazz's tutorial is for Poser, which is mainly for things that breath.
Bryce is cheap and good at things that don't (breath).
You can also do all or part of it in Blender, POVRay or one of the free modeling programs. Most (except POV) allow export of a format that Bryce supports.
I'd make the unit except that I am not good enough yet at Lightwave to make the model. And Bryce is not good enough at modeling to make the unit with out some of it being a mesh (for a complex unit like this).
The unit Bhiita previewed was a better an Ogre then I could create. Because it was made as a mesh.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

This unit is very unique and I think that many of us would enjoy it. Tanks have become the very symbol of modern warfare, and while a tank this size would never be practical(future tanks will be smaller, not bigger) its presence could add great fun to the game.

It's also an even older board game made by Peter Jacksson games. I think it's from late 70'ies or early 80'ies.

Yeah. Steve Jackson Games (used to be Metagaming Concepts) won all the early game awards for his new genre: the microgame. A pocket-sized package you could carry around (it was a lot cooler than a pocket-protector) and play on your lunch hour. It was so popular he expanded it, and by now it has full campaign-sized scenarios. But as far as I know, it hasn't been programmed as a "computer game" (if it has, PLEEEEASE let me know where I could download it!) Even now, the diehard players are programming email interfaces, mostly, I think.

Steve Jackson, the designer of Orge, worked for Metagaming back in the day. Metagaming did indeed introduce the "Microgame" concept, and "Ogre" was Microgame #1 (1977, the year I graduated High School). I've still got an original Metagaming copy around someplace...

There was a sequel called "GEV", and an expansion called "Shockwave".

BTW, Metagaming also did the first real space 4X game, a board game called "Stellar Conquest" (later reissued by Avalon Hill). "Master of Orion" borrowed a lot from that game, the same as the original Civ borrowed from Empire.

Metagaming went out of business and was mostly bought up by TSR (the D&D people). Jackson somehow got ahold of the rights to Ogre and still sells it (and GEV) under his own Steve Jackson Games label.

There was a computer version of Ogre in the 8-bit era (1986), Origin Systems (the "Wing Commander" & "Ultima" people). It is long out of print, and even "Home of the Underdogs" doesn't have it (taken off their web sit at Steve Jackson Games' request). I had a copy for the C64, but gave it away along with the computer when I switched to "IMB-Compatible" PC's.

 

[bhiita]

Sadly, he seems to have abandoned us. I have not heard anything about any progress being made on this unit.

It's slander! I'm suing!

It is not abandonment, but more a case of slothliness.

 

[FinnMcCool]

Steve Jackson, the designer of Orge, worked for Metagaming back in the day. Metagaming did indeed introduce the "Microgame" concept, and "Ogre" was Microgame #1 (1977, the year I graduated High School). I've still got an original Metagaming copy around someplace...

There was a sequel called "GEV", and an expansion called "Shockwave".

BTW, Metagaming also did the first real space 4X game, a board game called "Stellar Conquest" (later reissued by Avalon Hill). "Master of Orion" borrowed a lot from that game, the same as the original Civ borrowed from Empire.

Metagaming went out of business and was mostly bought up by TSR (the D&D people). Jackson somehow got ahold of the rights to Ogre and still sells it (and GEV) under his own Steve Jackson Games label.

You're old an' tough an' dirty an' rough, you Barnicle Bill The Sailor...

Stellar Conquest? I bought that before SJG was even SJG! In '76!! If that tells my age, think again: I was in junior high school, and saw the add in the back of a Boy's Life mag, and bought it. I think it was actually THE FIRST "space wargame", earlier than even Avalon Hill's Dune, Star Probe, even Starweb.


As for Metagaming Concepts being "bought up by the D&D people" that is an urban myth. Metagaming produced "The Fantasy Trip" as their version of a RPG, and I played it for about 15 years. SJG bought this from MG when they folded, and produced GURPS. I think SJG is still a viable business entity. I hope I'm not mistaken. GAWD I hope not... The "D&D people" have since become the "Magic: The Gathering people", and although I think they like SJG, they haven't actually bought up the company (I knew the CEO, and we played GEV and Stellar Conquest a lot; but now that he's a CEO, we've lost touch, but I think he's got his hands full with Hasbro, and SJG is still a free agent...)

 

[Gojira54]

If this unit were to be made, I would use it in X and Godzilla.

Shoot- missed the date- sorry for the bump!

 

[Spacer One]

Wotc is now owned by Parker Bros...which means...

TSR (D&D) = WizCo(Wotc or MTGccg Magic the Gathering) = Parker Bros(monopoly, Life etc)
SJG(not SJS anymore) is doing great...they have just released a new version of the Illuminati RPG/Card Game...it looks fun, but noone near me will play it (its a "primative" system compaired to 3rd edition AD&D which I think sucks)they all love the stupid new rules

isnt life grand...

[edit] sorry to be so OT just throwing in my 2 cents

 

[PriestOfDiscord]

bhiita's land battleship is a monsterous thing of beauty. Someone pester him until he finishes that!

 

[Bjornlo]

I believe he said real life issue was going to keep him from finishing this (or any of this other pending units) anytime soon.

 

[bhiita]

there maybe hope though.. I will say that I do terribly regret not being able to, or losing motivation to complete alot of things. So, I appologise for all the teasing and let down's I'm not sure I'm completly to be counted out yet, but I just a got a bit ahead of myself with the wanting to make a few more things.

 

[Gojira54]

there maybe hope though.. I will say that I do terribly regret not being able to, or losing motivation to complete alot of things. So, I appologise for all the teasing and let down's I'm not sure I'm completly to be counted out yet, but I just a got a bit ahead of myself with the wanting to make a few more things.

Life Happens. I dissappeared for awhile there myself. Do whatever you need to for yourself first.

If you do decide to finish this and some of your other projects, I for one would love to have them - you are an awesome unit maker!