Unit requests for Dragonlance Scenario

[SilverKnight]

I am in the process of making a scenario for Dragonlance, a fantasy book series, but I am short a few units. Some requested are:

Minotaur- 'nuff said
Minotaur Galley- though I plan on using a traditional galley
Gold, Silver, and Bronze Dragons- but I am willing to add Copper and Brass, as well. I have anims for blue, red, green, black, and white dragons, if needed
Draconian- lizard man with short, mostly useless wings, explodes or turns to stone on death, would prefer two units with both death anims
Pegasus- though it seems there's one out there already
Gnomeflinger- a quirky, complex-looking contraption of the gnomes that looks like anything from a trebuchet to a ballista to a catapult that launches gnomes into the air for transport or combat! Preferred animation would be a gnome sailing through the air!
Gnomish submersible- again, a not-yet-patented gnomish sub, steam-powered and primitive looking
White Winged Ships- fantastic Caravels with white, billowing sails, perhaps medium-sized wings attached on sides?
Carrack and Frigate- both with attacks w/out cannons

These are just for starters of the units I am missing from my personal collection; I have many anims already! If you would be willing to donate your anims or any input, please do so!!! I have Civs, a map, unit stats, and am currently finishing wonders/improvements and creating a whole new tech tree! With the help of our wonderful graphic artists, I plan on having v1.0 out by Christmas of "The War of the Lance," complete with Civolopedia updates.

I have so much respect for the CivFanatics out there that put time and effort into their units, and they will not be forgotten in my scenario! You can count on it!

 

[Tathlum]

Kinboat already made the minotaur and the dragon (others have made colour changes, so theres lots to choose from). And for the sake of a simple life use Lizardmen as Draconians, maybe with colour/size changes to make the different types.
I'd recomend always keeping things simple. There are plenty of Mods around that never see the light of day, because they try too much or are waiting for some vital units. Make a fun mod and patch in the unit animations if and when they show up.

Good luck....

 

[tjedge1]

A DragonLance mod was on my extended to do list. At the moment, I can't help much, but I would be interested in assisting with ideas if needed. I've read several DragonLance books, and I have an old guide that describes the old and new Krynn. There are a couple of maps floating around already. Do you plan to make a new one or use one of them.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

My map should still be somewhere in the map's forum. It's not perfect but its a huge start if you want to use it.

 

[SilverKnight]

I notice some people aren’t familiar with the Dragonlance book series. Dragonlance is a fantasy novel series based off of Dungeons and Dragons, and centered on the dragons. The world of Krynn is in trouble, as the evil goddess Takhisis, Queen of Darkness, wages war using dark magic, lizard-men called draconians, and, especially, dragons. The humans, elves, and dwarves of this world have to put aside their differences to fight this evil with the help of the true gods, long-thought to be banished from Krynn. With the knowledge of the true gods, and the legendary power of the Dragonlance, they might just fight off the dark shadow of evil reaching across the land…
Now, in response…

Tathlum: Well put. I was first going with the impression of "get it right the first time," but I'd rather see a finished mod than a perfectly-incomplete one! And come to think of it, I do already have Kinboat's Minotaur, I don't know why it was on the list! Do you know where I could find some of the "metallic" dragons I need?

Tjedge1: First, I had planned on using my own map, but it's only about a 1/4 done. And I could use some help if you would be willing. Some events and places in the book series are vital to the story, and a mod without them would be tragic indeed! I'm having problems implementing them into my scenario, but if you have any suggestions, please let me know!
Here's what's left to do:

Tribes- should Minotaurs and Plainsmen be tribes? What about Mages, since they are usually independent? Or even the "Heroes of the Lance?" And could Gully Dwarves ever be considered a Civilization?

Kender- Since Kender are such a nuisance, most of their units are "Hidden

Nationality," to represent other peoples disregard for them. But do Knights just wantonly kill Kender?

The Dragonlance- This scenario is based off it; yet how do I represent it in the game? Should Knights (Solamnia only) upgrade to it with an advance? Which one?

Dragon Orbs- There were three Dragon Orbs at the start of the war, and their possesion was fought over violently. This SCREAMS out "Flag Unit," but how do I make it useful against dragons?

Queen of Darkness and the Everman- The war was fought by the forces of good and neutral to keep the Queen of Darkness from entering the world and ruling Krynn. Her success hinged on one, immortal man, the Everman. By bringing him to Neraka, where the Dark Queen could possibly destroy him, he would be released to death in return for Krynn’s salvation. Yet how do I simulate this in game? It’s tempting again to make Berem another Flag Unit, but what good will he be?

Blood Sea of Istar and Sea Elves- Deadly to all ships (cannot survive ocean square), even though I would prefer a red sea, but in the book, this was where the sea elves rescued the Heroes and returned them to land. I could easily ignore the sea elves and sea dragons, but it makes for a little excitement to have them!

Silvanesti Dream- the ancient elven homeland plagued by nightmare trees and creatures… I was thinking pollution, but this would cause mass destruction of world terrain… is that acceptable?

Towers of High Sorcery, Mages, and their Robes- White Robes stand for good, Red robes for neutrality, and black robes for evil; should these units all have different stats? Should mages be built only by the Mage tribe, or by anyone? And what about the Towers? Impenetrable to armies, yet accessible to mages. Hmm…

Blue Crystal Staff- The holy relic that unites the Heroes in their efforts to save Krynn, how should it be portrayed in the scenario?

Any help anyone can offer is much appreciated!

Wyrmshadow- I would love to see it and even more to use it! Do you know where it is?

Thanks, guys!

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Here you go
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=41691

 

[SilverKnight]

The forum admins may have gotten rid of the previews and links to save space, since I can't seem to find any! Do you still have it?

 

[Wyrmshadow]

look in post #16

 

[SilverKnight]

For simplicity's sake (and uploading times on dial-up!), I chose a much smaller map size, 130x130, and because I suck at mapping! Also, I find the smaller maps, if properly balanced, make for good gaming. Yours is incredible, though, and I may use some of the city placements in mine, with your permission, of course. Awesome!

 

[Tathlum]

The Dragon variations are later down the original thread, by Kinboat.

Minotaurs and plainsman tribes, yeah sure. If you think you have enough variation with a minotaur and a beastman.

Maybe have the towers of sorcery as resources, that let you build mages. Maybe some "tech" like "mages treaty" or something. King units should work well as Mages. The magic orders where unaligned but individual mages chose sides.

This is a Dragonlance inspired civ scenario, it'll never be a perfect replication, so go let Rose Knights stomp on kender.

How to make Dragon Orbs usefull against Dragons? Make dragons work like aircraft and give orbs and dragonlance equiped units Anti-Aircraft ability? Good enough?

Let the Silvanesti dream slowly corrupt the world? Yeah, why not.

Blue crystal staff as a wonder maybe? (what did the blue crystal staff do exactly?)

Sorry I cant be more help than giving a couple of suggestions but I really dont have a lot of time to spend on the Forum...

 

[Plotinus]

There was a time when, I'm afraid, I knew more about the Dragonlance world than I did about anything else. I'd love to play this when it's done. Make sure you do it justice! And don't forget the Death Knights...

 

[tjedge1]

Tjedge1: First, I had planned on using my own map, but it's only about a 1/4 done. And I could use some help if you would be willing. Some events and places in the book series are vital to the story, and a mod without them would be tragic indeed! I'm having problems implementing them into my scenario, but if you have any suggestions, please let me know!
Here's what's left to do:

Tribes- should Minotaurs and Plainsmen be tribes? What about Mages, since they are usually independent? Or even the "Heroes of the Lance?" And could Gully Dwarves ever be considered a Civilization?

That's a tough one. You could make the Minotaurs their own civ, and the Plainsmen as well. Especially if you make the scenario start before the Draconians invade the plains. There are many native american units floating around you could use for that. (Check my signature for a link to a sight that has a very organized library. It will have everything except the most recent units.) With Minotaurs you could use the same graphix for each Minotaur unit, but alter the stats so it's upgradable like other civs units. I wouldn't make the Heroes a tribe themselves. The Mechanics of the game doesn't follow that concept, unfortunatly. Gully Dwarves? If you can find units, it would be funny, but they shouldn't get too advanced. Afterall that one in the Chronicles thought she was opening a secret door with a dead rat. Mages are kind of difficult. Since they had no allegiance to other nations, You could make them their own civ, or just make a Great Wonder for each Wizard Tower that produces a mage and some science bonus or something. Not sure what the bonus for that would be, but making them their own civ would be tough since they lived in cities ruled by others. That's up to you.

Kender- Since Kender are such a nuisance, most of their units are "Hidden Nationality," to represent other peoples disregard for them. But do Knights just wantonly kill Kender?

Yes if they are "Hidden Nationality" all other civs will kill on sight. One way to do this is create a scout that is Invisible + Hidden Nationality, but do not give it Capture or Pillage. Then you would have an excellent scout that if killed would not start a war either. Maybe give it the "stealth" also just in case.

The Dragonlance- This scenario is based off it; yet how do I represent it in the game? Should Knights (Solamnia only) upgrade to it with an advance? Which one?

Not sure which advance or what to call it or anything, but they should be able to upgrade to that. Have it also give then the air defense ability like SAM's do in the normal game to also help against dragons, if you make them air units. Like Tathlum posted.

Dragon Orbs- There were three Dragon Orbs at the start of the war, and their possesion was fought over violently. This SCREAMS out "Flag Unit," but how do I make it useful against dragons?

Having only 3 orbs, they could be Great Wonders instead of units, and could have -75% Missile attacks and a super high air defense to make it almost impossible for dragons to successfully attack that city if you make them air units.

Queen of Darkness and the Everman- The war was fought by the forces of good and neutral to keep the Queen of Darkness from entering the world and ruling Krynn. Her success hinged on one, immortal man, the Everman. By bringing him to Neraka, where the Dark Queen could possibly destroy him, he would be released to death in return for Krynn’s salvation. Yet how do I simulate this in game? It’s tempting again to make Berem another Flag Unit, but what good will he be?

I'm not sure how to do this, but this type of victory, where a certain unit reaches a certain point and it's an automatic victory for that civ, has been discussed in the Lord of the Mods thread as well. Not sure how that would be done myself.

Blood Sea of Istar and Sea Elves- Deadly to all ships (cannot survive ocean square), even though I would prefer a red sea, but in the book, this was where the sea elves rescued the Heroes and returned them to land. I could easily ignore the sea elves and sea dragons, but it makes for a little excitement to have them!

Not sure how to add the sea elves, but if you made sea tiles impassible by wheeled units then used the Dragon Turtle unit someone made and make wheeled, then a few preplaced Dragon Turtles can also wreak havoc on anyone trying to cross the Blood Sea and if they can bombard, they will wreak havoc on anyone getting too close. With the wheeled method they would only be in the Blood Sea if it was all ocean. Another thing is to maybe do some reddening of the ocean tiles so that they appear red on the map and only use the ocean in the Blood Sea.

Silvanesti Dream- the ancient elven homeland plagued by nightmare trees and creatures… I was thinking pollution, but this would cause mass destruction of world terrain… is that acceptable?

I don't see a problem with this. Maybe the Silvanesti start here instead of the island far away and begin the game trying to clean up their mess. I don't see a problem with it affecting the rest of the world early on as it may have if it wasn't for the Heroes of the Lance anyway. Who could say it couldn't have eventually spread out and touched the rest of the world.

Towers of High Sorcery, Mages, and their Robes- White Robes stand for good, Red robes for neutrality, and black robes for evil; should these units all have different stats? Should mages be built only by the Mage tribe, or by anyone? And what about the Towers? Impenetrable to armies, yet accessible to mages. Hmm…

Again, mages would be difficult o be seperated, but they rarely worked with eachother either so having them part of other civsas Great WOnders that produce that type of mage is not a bad idea. Giving them different abilities would be interesting.

Blue Crystal Staff- The holy relic that unites the Heroes in their efforts to save Krynn, how should it be portrayed in the scenario?

Don't know how it could be portrayed, except as a tech called Rebirth of Clerical Healing that would allow the small wonder of Battlefield Medicine.


Just a few ideas I had in the back of my head for a while when thinking about doing this mod myself. Take what you want. It's your mod. Just wanted to share in case you hadn't thought of these ideas.

 

[SilverKnight]

Tathlum: I'm still not entirely used to Conquests yet, nor have I even played a non-"Conquest" game, let alone to the Industrial Ages, so I'd forgotten about Anti-Air defense entirely! Great suggestion with the DragonLance and the DragonOrbs, I think I'll do that! Also, your comment about the "Kender-crushing" Rose Knights gave me an idea- to break up my Solamnic Knight Unit into Solamnic Crown Knight, Sword Knight, and Rose Knight, each with different stats, shield costs, and DragonLance-upgradeable units! Excellent!

Plotinus: I'm glad you'll be willing! I hope you will be as tough a critic on it as I am; I love making a scenario perfect, so anything you could help with would be great! And don't worry, Death Knight will be in there... though you may wish they weren't...

Tjedge1: I like the idea of the Minotaur units increasing in strength, just like the Legionaries in the Rise of Rome Conquest . I had planned on them- if they were a Civ- having only the Minotaur unit and the War Galley, but using the same graphics for different purposes sounds intriguing... I'll have to give more thought to the Minotaurs, our first new tribe!

The Plainsmen of Abanasinia will be a luxury resource in the Solace area with immobile "Barbarian" Plainsmen units on them. Abanasinia or someone else will have to destroy the warlike "tribes" before trade with the barbarians can begin. Also, the Plainsmen of the Plains of Dust are "barbarians" but with different units.

Maybe the Heroes of the Lance will be owned by Player 1 (provided Player 1 is a civ like Solamnia or Abanasinia) and start near Solace so they can move around in the cities better... In the book, they were owned first by Abanasinia, then Qualinesti, then Thorbardin, then Tarsis, then Silvanesti, then Balifor, then the Gnomes and finally Solamnia, but the scenario will be a little more strict.

Mages, I’ve decided, will be there own Civ, with certain interesting quirks. (It’s best if I don’t tell you, because I’m quite proud of the solutions I’ve thought up, and you’ll all find out soon enough!)

Also, I’ll have to look into the stealph attack more, but yes, the Kender version of a scout does have Hidden Nationality and Invisibility. (No units have pillage since there are no workers.)

I was thinking of having a VP scoring system, with various cities and locations (being highly sought after in the novels) being Victory Locations, but then I thought that if the Everman was a flag unit, and which ever Civ brought him to Neraka, they would win. Really, if anyone BUT the Dragonarmies did so, everyone would win, but there are no locked alliances in this scenario and therefore no coalition victory. That way, all 10,000 or whatever VP could be scored in one fell swoop, representing either the Dark Queen’s banishment from the world or her exultant return, depending on who “captured the flag."

I like the Sea Turtle idea, I'll download that now! But I think I'll make him "Sink in Seas" and not Ocean, since the Blood Sea is far enough away from the coast on all sides (actually, not finished yet, but I'll make sure!) I'd like to make use of my Tornado unit to have an immobile, Barbarian Maelstrom in the center. That'd be cool! By the way... I don't know how to make the ocean redder (though the rest of the water is sea like you suggested), nor do I think I have the software needed; if anyone could do this for me, that'd be great! A sort a dull, brownish-reddish mix would be do the trick (since the Blood Sea is actually fertile farming soil continually mixed with the salt water)!

Also, the Silvanesti dream will be shown by having Silvanesti as a jungle, needed to be cleared by Silvanesti “Woodshapers” and replanted as the Silvanesti forests. That gets rid of the pollution problem, which could ruin my now carefully balanced map (3/4 done now, it was a late few nights!).

I'm still a little confused on the issue of the Blue Crystal Staff myself (which was an ancient relic of healing and the first clue to the "return" of the old gods), but I think it will just be an advance or something, I still have to work the tech tree out...

Also, I was toying with the idea of an "Astinus" unit. I thought maybe he'd be an immobile air unit, infinite bombard range (though no bombard) and recon. That'd show his limited willingness to assist the lords and generals of Solamnia with his knowledge of the present, with a wonder of the world to show his knowledge of the past.

You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the ideas, they'll show up in the scenario! Please, any more comments, ideas, suggestions, questions or complaints, post 'em here!

 

[tjedge1]

I like the turtle sinking in seas idea. It may not bother to leave the Blood Sea anyway as I don't believe the AI likes to take that risk, but it sounds cool. Another thing is to make the Barbarian ship something other than the Dragon Turtle. There are Dragon Turtles in Krynn. There was one I remember in the Icewall Trilogy by Douglas Niles. You could place the Dragon Turtles and the Barb camps would produce something else like Kraken or Pirate ships. The Tornado is cool too. Make it immobile but able to bombard a good distance so ships might sink even if they avoid the Dragon Turtles.

The Jungle idea is really good. That does sound much better. The AI would be willing ot cut down the Jungle. One thing you could do is make the Forest as fertile or slightly more than grassland plus production, and then don't allow elves to irrigate or mine. Something that I'm going to try in my mod. That way it will incourage the elven civs to plant forests instead. Not sure how much the AI will go with that, but it's worth a try if it works.

Your VP scoring idea sounds good, I think that might be what they came up with in the Lord of the Mods. Could be worth a try.

Don't worry about the tech tree till last. Trust me. I was told to save it for last, but I have tried to start working on it 3 times for my mod and it gets scrapped within a week of working on it. Best to save it for very last. It's not a bad idea however to keep a list of techs and what they will allow and do such as flags, improvements, units, etc. I have a list that is still growing for my mod. So keep a list, but don't bother with the tree till the last. Otherwise you'll keep expanding it and changing it and then deleting areas then remaking them.

 

[SilverKnight]

Thanks for the support! I was going to put goblins for the basic barbarian and ogres for advanced, and war galley's for the ship unit.

In regards to terrain, I figured on making the forest that the Silvanesti "Woodshapers" could plant would be as fertile as grassland with same production as forests, making it an appealing and relatively quick bonus for them. Remember, there are no other workers and no pillage ability, though bombard might still damage roads... I'm toying with the idea of having Kender build roads, but that'll have to be playtested.

In addition, for making the map, marshes can have fortresses and mountains can have cities, just so I can try new things. The scenario rules won't be added and tweaked until I have the map done. (All of the mainland minus Abanasinia, and all the islands in the Courrain (eastern) ocean are placed.) Units and cities will be added later.

Here's what I have done so far- let me know what you think!
Ruins are all cities, except for the ones in the north (actual ruins!).

 

[tjedge1]

Pretty good. Isn't the Blood Sea bigger? Maybe I'm just used to those huge maps. Anyway, it looks good so far. Are you going to use a terrain modpack or just stick with the original graphix?

 

[black gas]

sounds interesting (i spent a happy youth reading those books)

i think it would be more fun, replay value, and less of a learning curve to have a straight up simulation of ansalon with new graphics, civs, units, and techs (no plots for individual heroes or attempts to follow any single book too closely). Two scenarios, i.e. seperate .bix for pre cataclysm (with civs like Istar) and post cataclysm (palanthas, caergoth, thorbardin, qualinesti, etc..)

for the blood sea, why not make all the water on the map 'sea', and reserve 'ocean' tiles for the blood sea, recolor 'ocean' tiles, and make all ships sinkable in ocean?

 

[Plotinus]

Should be good fun. One thing I would say though... don't try to make it TOO like the books - that is, don't try to force the player to do what happens in the books, if you see what I mean. I've seen Lord of the Rings discussions where it goes into technicalities about how to upgrade Gandalf at Moria and how to ensure that Saruman attacks Helm's Deep and so on. That's silly - the point of having a scenario in a game is that you can play it how you want it to turn out. We don't all play every game of Civ on a world map and try to replicate world history, and it would be as daft to try to engineer a scenario in the same way.

Not that I'm suggesting you might be about to do that, of course! Just my thoughts on this kind of thing. Remember also that there's lots of stuff in the Dragonlance world that doesn't make much of an appearance in the books, or is only hinted at - the finding of Kharas' hammer at the start of Dragons of Winter Night, for example. And yes, I do possess the Dragonlance Rules book and the Monster Manual from many, many years ago. Oh my. I might have to find out if they still exist or if my father cleared them out of his attic...

You know, the Dragonlance world is so deep that you could easily make a pile of scenarios - you could have one set just before the Cataclysm, for example. I reckon that when you've got all the units and so on sorted out you might be able to do a few variations if you feel in the mood... whatever happens I'd love to have a look!

 

[SilverKnight]

Tjedge1: The Blood Sea is as big as I can make it and have a Dragon Turtle with a move of three be locked inside. I'll playtest the "Wheeled Unit" flag idea, which would allow the Blood Sea of Istar to be bigger. In regards to terrain, the only modpacks I have are Snoopy's Watercolor, Warpstorm, both of which came from the disk, and Star Wars (which doesn't seem appropriate for THIS fantasy book ), so if anyone has any preferences, let me know! I planned on using just the original look, it feels better...

black gas: I have thought about it, and I would like to make a separate scenario for the pre-Cataclysm Age of Might, where Istar reigns. The time limit could be set so that the game ends at the end of 962 (the year in Istar of the Cataclysm, see the Chronicles book, "Time of the Twins"), and Istar, Solamnia, and Ergoth would play large roles trying to "defeat" the evil races. This would be a completely different scenario, with a wholly new map, so anyone could make it. And your suggestion for the Blood Sea is exactly how I did it, you should download it from the link above.

Plotinus: I struggle with that, since I'm a stickler for details. For instance, I have to remind myself that the Blue Lady and her armies DO NOT have to attack the High Clerist's Tower, even though this is pivotal to the book plot. Certain events are set to happen, but not as much as I had first plannde on.

Something else occurred to me... I am missing a lot of leader names for tribes, like the Minotaurs, Tarsis (it's own Civ), Balifor, the Kagonesti Elves, and the Gnomes. Also, I have very few great leaders for Abansinia, Tarsis, the Kagonesti Elves, the Minotaurs, and Ergoth; no scientific leaders what so ever! Any help?

 

[Tathlum]

For Abanasia, Tarsis and Ergoth, decide what Earth Culture they most resemble and pick names from there, any tinker gnomes mentioned in any book could count as a Scientific leader right?

I could dig out an old D+D sourcebook if it would help but I guess you might already have them right?