units - combined arms?

V. Soma

long time civ fan
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The new pictures in the IGN preview show units that seem to be COMBINED,
that is: eg. archers with pikemen (?)

Now, how is that?
And under what circumstances?
Can a 3-figure unit be combined of more types?

Exciting questions, I think...
 
Well, I guess pikemen kill cavalry, swordsmen infantry, archers something, etc
 
How did you get that? If you refer to green and red balls, then I think they represents other units in the square, which have either mooved (red) or haven't (green).

Aks K
 
Aha... :(

Is then just graphical representation of
multiple number of multi-units in the same tile?
 
The Last Conformist said:
The developers have stated their undying hatred for rock-paper-scissors systems.

However, that is somewhat close to how it seems to be working.

In real life, it would go something like pikemen are good vs. heavy infantry and cavalry, swordsmen good against pikemen and heavy infantry, cavalry good against light infantry, light cavalry good against cavalry, etc., etc... It's confusing to say out loud. :)

Most likely the bonii of each unit in the stack will be combined... Hopefully.
 
North King said:
However, that is somewhat close to how it seems to be working.

In real life, it would go something like pikemen are good vs. heavy infantry and cavalry, swordsmen good against pikemen and heavy infantry, cavalry good against light infantry, light cavalry good against cavalry, etc., etc... It's confusing to say out loud. :)
The late medieval "triangle" was cavalry beats archers beats heavy infantry beats cavalry.

But, judging on their previous comments, the developers don't want to have this sort of dynamic in the game.
 
Spearmen get 100% of their Combat Strength when defending against mounted units. At least, thats what we have been told. Given, however, that Cavalry will have a WAY higher combat strength than spearmen, then this bonus probably won't save them. Against early horsemen, though, they will be VERY useful when combined with some archers and swordsmen.
This is the point-its not a true RPS system, as nothing is guaranteed. However, certain units will enjoy some 'natural benefits' when paired off against certain types of enemy units-thus encouraging a more combined arms approach.
Also, we have been informed that both Stack Move and Stack Attack will be in the game too-though we have still to find out if Stack attack is simultaneous or not.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aks K said:
How did you get that? If you refer to green and red balls, then I think they represents other units in the square, which have either mooved (red) or haven't (green).
I suspect the same to be true. I am pretty sure they would have had said earlier there is "combined arms"- simultaneous attack possibility.

I would inspect that "combined arms" in Civ IV means that you need to combine different kinds of units in order to prevail in wars rather than use only one types of units, the units still make single attacks and cannot be combined for the attack. Otherwise they would also defend together which they don't as been stated earlier by saying "the strongest unit of stack will automatically defend" if I remember correctly.
 
If you are refering to the video clip where the archer suddely starts to kind of fence against the horse units, my guess is that it's not combined arms just a small subtlety in the animation.
If you ask me, what he really does is defending himself in close combat, just like in Heroes. :p
 
I'm fairly optimistic about this new element. From what I've read combined arms will at least be encouraged. I don't think combined attacks will occur though.
 
Texan General said:
I'm fairly optimistic about this new element. From what I've read combined arms will at least be encouraged. I don't think combined attacks will occur though.

If encouraged enough, the player will do what the game designer wants him to. It was bad design that didnt make that happen in Civ 3.
 
Personally, though, I wouldn't be suprised if they left a definitive mention of any simultaneous combat until much closer to the release date-probably after Beta Testing is completed. After all, the last thing they want to do is announce a feature only to find the beta testers didn't like it, and they have to remove it.
At the least though, stack combat WILL be completely automated-which is a great thing.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
[...]
At the least though, stack combat WILL be completely automated-which is a great thing.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

... if it works.
In Civ3 the AI often determined units for defense (obviously by multiplying hitpoints and D-stats) a human player would have saved for the counter-attack.

There is a chance that the combination of former A- and D-stats into just one stat will make the correct determination easier, though.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
At the least though, stack combat WILL be completely automated-which is a great thing.

But how this automation is good thing?
I mean if you still make a stack of doom an example AI doesn't know how to handle such thing (which problem Commander Bello adresses little) it will still go to the point that you gather around strong units and form stack of doom.

I think it should be players decisions to choose with what units to attack (if it's not simultaneous stack attack) because otherwise we are lacking strategic options or are planning that idiots can win the battle just because they have large and powerful stack of doom? And if in attack AI (again if it cannot handle the concept) chooses wrong units to the attack it will cause massive disturbance to the human player rather than able to pick units to attack himself.

The question of course is that whether put more weight on the issue of constructing an army in opposed to be using the army in actual chains of battle.

I think the whole point of getting promotions and different bonuses to the unit is that player have to decide which bonuses to pick and then choose how to use them in the best possible way whether it's single attack or stack attack and so emphasize the whole idea of "combined arms"-concept along with whether to spread units or not (possible timing is the key => first go move along through roads closer, spread your units so artillery won't hurt you badly, send some forces to attack so artillery units will attack them, join the forces and make stack attack to actual target tile example to a city)

I could go as far that during opponent turns while they are attacking your troops the human player could pick with which units in that stack to defend. It would offer much more challenge than now. Especially if it would offer such option that defending with same unit in the same turn would give that unit slight penalty a defending again (they are fatigued) or facing attacks from different tiles than last one (flanking) would also give penalty, it would create a good challenge for human player (Player have to choose whether use the elite powerful unit that gets penalty or use fresh unit that is weaker in overall but can be possible be sacrificed so the elite unit will survive)
What I think is there lies a huge problem if whole point of the current game system is just take all kinds of units, try to keep them alive long time and gather promotions and then just go on fury.

I would rather see more tactical choices (and more strategical realistic rules affecting them) rather than "build you army" and win type of thing. Which in fact in my opinion is very much the same thing as the stack of doom, only difference being that the stack of doom was made from same kind of units and in the current system it would be done from different flavours of units. But it's still the same thing.

One of the options of course would be limit the amount of units able to be in the same tile example to 3. This would be actually quite realistic in a way that even though units in real world could be in amount of terrain single tile represents in a game they still would have hard time attacking and defending even in the real world as they are preventing each other from free and efficient movement (traffic). In cities there could be of course more than 3 units and possible this could be way to give extra value to things like fortresses, castles and even military leaders that could give units the ability to have more than the restricted amount of units in same tile by "organising" them. There could be such promotion possibility. Because of experience and training (drills) the forces could be in the same tile as they would have knowledge how to move without creating traffic jam.

But there are many things we don't know about current system and I was surprised that they took "promotions" into the game maybe there are more surprises to follow.

Edit: Some editing
 
The point-Sickman-is that strength alone is not sufficient. It is the TYPE of unit which matters most. Hence, when the AI selects a unit to attack or defend, its decision will be based on both strength and type (i.e. the type of unit it is and the type of units available).
For instance, lets say you put together a stack of artillery unit, then find yourself facing off against a mixed group of infantry and cavalry. Well, the Cavalry get a bonus against artillery units, so suddenly you find your artillery getting cut to pieces by the cavalry and-to a lesser extent-the infantry. Also, if the enemy stack also had one or two artillery too, then that artillery SoD ain't gonna mean a damn-as they say.
Point is, its not deciding what units defend or attack which comprises strategy in this case, but trying to ascertain what kind of enemy units you are going to face, and putting together a unit combination that will be best to deal with them. None of which is consistent with the old Stack of Doom tactic.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
Point is, its not deciding what units defend or attack which comprises strategy in this case, but trying to ascertain what kind of enemy units you are going to face, and putting together a unit combination that will be best to deal with them. None of which is consistent with the old Stack of Doom tactic.

So earlier when I chose 15 powerful units of same type (example cavalry) I have to now choose 5 of infantry, 5 of artillery and 5 of cavalry to make new stack of doom?
Tell me it isn't so...
 
So earlier when I chose 15 powerful units of same type (example cavalry) I have to now choose 5 of infantry, 5 of artillery and 5 of cavalry to make new stack of doom?

Why Sickman?? I mean, sure, 15 units is still a lot, but surely its better-and more realistic-to have that mixture of units, than to simply overwhelm your opponent with over a dozen of the same uber-powerful unit. I mean sorry, but that is not very strategic in my opinion!
Plus, we already know that 'artillery' type units do variable amounts of collateral damage, so facing a stack with any kind of bombardment unit-with that many units in a single stack-is going to verge on the point of suicide.
But I am still confused as to why you would prefer to have a stack of 15 Cavalry units rather than a mix of 3 different unit types. For someone who claims to like strategy, thats probably the least strategic route you could possibly take. Hell, I take that mix of units out with me in Civ3-and thats in spite of knowing that it doesn't really help my chance of victory. Now that it will, you can bet that it will feature even more strongly in my battle plan.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
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