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Units, Upgrade tree, Combat, Healing and Equipment

Discussion in 'Gedemon's Civilization, a total overhaul project' started by Gedemon, May 7, 2017.

  1. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    Actually having to produce and bring arrows is a really good idea. The main benefit of a sling was that you could find "ammo", i.e. pebbles just about everywhere. So, having a "Fletcher" building in order to produce arrows, would be just fine. But I can understand the need to reduce the overall building count. So maybe combine the Bowyer (Bowmaker) with the Fletcher (Arrowmaker) into one building? Although I guess representing arrow/ammo-making through Materiel is also acceptable, unless you want to keep track of flint arrows, bronze arrows, iron arrows, crossbow bolts, etc. I suppose they brought fletchers along in the Baggage train, who produced new arrows inbetween battles (if possible). There should be a cost to shooting (or possibility to run out of ammo temporarily), at least when attacking several turns in a row, imo.

    Moderator Action: copied and edited from the main thread
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2017
  2. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Adding a supply line is not a problem, and we have an "Artillator" building that fit both role.

    And I could code the making of simple equipment on the field (I was pondering it for wooden club / stone axes for example)

    First problem is that AFAIK I can't prevent an unit from shooting on the mod side.

    But if we remove materiel from an unit, it will lose "health" (materiel lost in "frontline", the corresponding personnel/bows put in "reserve"), preventing infinite shooting.

    Second problem (that I didn't thought of initially) then would be to prevent the AI from suicide-shooting.

    edit : maybe with a low usage of materiel to reduce the effect on the AI :think:
     
  3. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    How about temporary promotions? If s unit gets low on arrows, it gets minus to strength value? I'm assuming you mean that Strength is tied to HP, but I mean the effect on combat calculation, like the policy that gives +5 Vs Barbs.

    Being low on arrows would naturally reduce an archers effectiveness, so: -15 vs Melee/Cav, that turn? (Idk about the exact numbers).

    Or if using automatic upgrade/downgrade system, could we turn the Archer unit into a "melee" unit temporarily? It would retain its Bows and Archer skills, but many archers would have a sidearm, and some had a shield or even a shieldbearer assigned (Ancient Egypt). Though many ranged units were bad at close combat, do their effectiveness should be reduced.

    There's a maximum range for units, but I'm guessing it's not possible to set a minimum range?

    If that were possible, then you could stop the unit from shooting, by temporarily increasing it so that the unit isn't in range of anything on the map.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
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  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    The second idea may work, yes, thanks!
     
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  5. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    Many siege weapons (for shooting at walls/structures) were constructed by engineers, when the army had reached/surrounded the city, though sometimes materials were brought a long way. I think Battering rams for example, were usually made on the spot.

    Just tossing out another wild idea. Could we allow an classical era "Military engineer" unit to build "improvements" when adjacent to an enemy city? Or maybe the Military engineer unit would simply carry the materials necessary, and then "transform" into a proper Siege unit once adjacent to a City?

    Of course, cannons were used in field battles, but I'm guessing we're gonna have a Cannon foundry -building, in order to build those units.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  6. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    The actual plan for the first siege units (before bombard/cannon) is to be spawned automatically by units that have a specific promotion when adjacent to an enemy city, using resources (materiel or adjacent resources)

    (the "engineer" being part of a melee unit, represented by a "promotion")
     
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  7. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    For reference, the table I'm using to test the code about unit's organizations that I'm currently writting:
    Code:
        <MilitaryOrganisationLevels>
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL0"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="1.80" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="10" MaxHealingPerTurn="10" /> <!-- Ancient          SupplyLine = 5 -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL1"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="1.40" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="12" MaxHealingPerTurn="11" /> <!-- Classical      SupplyLine = 7     Military Tradition -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL2"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="1.20" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="14" MaxHealingPerTurn="12" /> <!-- Classical      SupplyLine = 8     Military Training -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL3"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="1.00" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="16" MaxHealingPerTurn="14" /> <!-- Medieval          SupplyLine = 9     Feudalism -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL4"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="0.80" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="18" MaxHealingPerTurn="16" /> <!-- Renaissance    SupplyLine = 12 Mercenaries -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL5"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="0.50" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="20" MaxHealingPerTurn="18" /> <!-- Industrial        SupplyLine = 20 Nationalism -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL6"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="0.40" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="22" MaxHealingPerTurn="20" /> <!-- Modern          SupplyLine = 26 Mobilization -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL7"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="0.30" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="25" MaxHealingPerTurn="25" /> <!-- Atomic          SupplyLine = 33 Cold War -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL8"     SupplyLineLengthFactor="0.25" MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve="30" MaxHealingPerTurn="30" /> <!-- Information     SupplyLine = 39 Rapid Deployment -->
        </MilitaryOrganisationLevels>
        
        <MilitaryFormations>
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_HORDE"     />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COHORTE"     />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"    />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT" />
            <Row MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"    />
        </MilitaryFormations>
        
        <MilitaryFormationStructures>   
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL0"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="400"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL1"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_HORDE"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="700"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL2"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COHORTE"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="100" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL3"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1500"     ReservePersonnel="500" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL4"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     SizeString="X"        FrontLinePersonnel="3000"     ReservePersonnel="1000" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL5"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="5000"     ReservePersonnel="2000" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL6"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="6000"     ReservePersonnel="4000" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL7"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="5000"     ReservePersonnel="5000" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL8"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_MELEE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     SizeString="X"        FrontLinePersonnel="4000"     ReservePersonnel="4000" />
            
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL0"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="200"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL1"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="300"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL2"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COHORTE"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="50" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL3"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="700"     ReservePersonnel="200" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL4"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="800"     ReservePersonnel="250" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL5"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="400" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL6"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="750" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL7"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="1000" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL8"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SKIRMISHER" MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="1000" />
            
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL0"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="200"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL1"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_HORDE"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="300"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL2"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COHORTE"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="50" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL3"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="700"     ReservePersonnel="200" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL4"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     SizeString="X"        FrontLinePersonnel="800"     ReservePersonnel="250" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL5"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="400" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL6"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="1000"     ReservePersonnel="750" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL7"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_DIVISION"     SizeString="XX"        FrontLinePersonnel="1200"     ReservePersonnel="1200" />     <!-- Division = 200-300 tanks -->
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL8"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_CAVALRY"     MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_BRIGADE"     SizeString="X"        FrontLinePersonnel="600"     ReservePersonnel="600" />     <!-- Brigade = 150-200 tanks -->
            
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL0"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_PARTY"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="100"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL1"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_HORDE"     SizeString="I"        FrontLinePersonnel="150"     ReservePersonnel="0" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL2"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COHORTE"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="250"     ReservePersonnel="25" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL3"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="350"     ReservePersonnel="100" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL4"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_COMPANY"     SizeString="II"        FrontLinePersonnel="400"     ReservePersonnel="175" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL5"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="200" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL6"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="375" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL7"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="500" />
            <Row OrganisationLevelType="LEVEL8"     PromotionClassType="PROMOTION_CLASS_SIEGE"         MilitaryFormationType="FORMATION_REGIMENT"     SizeString="III"    FrontLinePersonnel="500"     ReservePersonnel="500" />
        </MilitaryFormationStructures>    
    Quick explanation:
    • SupplyLineLengthFactor is used to calculate SupplyLineEfficiency (% of required resources transferred from city to unit) = ( 100 - math.pow(distance * SupplyLineLengthFactor,2) ) at 0.3 max distance = 33, at 0.85 max distance = 11, at 1.80 max distance = 5
    • MaxPersonnelPercentFromReserve : Percentage of max personnel in frontline that can be transfered from reserve when healing
    • MaxHealingPerTurn : Max HP per turn when healing. Healing may be limited by this one or the above, as the rapport between personnel and HP is not linear (the units heal faster when at low health)
    • SizeString : text to be displayed above the unit flag to represent its maximum number of personnel
    • FrontLinePersonnel : max number of personnel in "Frontline"
    • ReservePersonnel : max number of personnel in Reserve (added to the default value which is the number of personnel missing in frontline)
     
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  8. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Size strings on units
    _size.jpg
     
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  9. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    I haven't been here in a while and I'm interested in getting up to speed on the current state.

    I have a few questions, and I'll start with wounded units. Medicine generated by cities can heal wounded units which restores the size of the army. I'm not an expert on ancient warfare, but I believe that usually if a soldier is wounded to the point of being unable to fight and are nursed back to health, they are excused from military service (I think there may be some exceptions to this though). I think that if soldiers are healed, they should not reinforce the army, but they should be free to return to their homes where they would become a member of the population again. I'm not sure if you could categorize them in some way that would make them unable to be recalled into active service. Maybe there would be a timer for a few turns each time soldiers returned to their home cities. The timer would represent the rest of that soldier's life, meaning that when the timer is finished, the soldier has died and been replaced by another person. The soldier would still be able to contribute to other aspects of the city.

    Secondly, I'm wondering how you plan to handle medicine and injury. Will medicine only be for treating injuries or will there be an aspect of disease/pestilence involved as well? For example, marsh tiles have a high food yield and so as far as I'm aware, make good tiles for units to rest on to get food. However, I think that marshes actually make a terrible place for setting up a camp: stagnant water is a breeding ground for mosquitoes and the pervasive water can lead to foot rot or festering wounds.

    I think there's a similar argument for rainforests.

    And then also tundra and snow tiles are poor places as well. While they already offer a penalty on food, I think the extreme cold would be an additional negative factor, even for a unit that was well-supplied with food.

    So, I'm wondering if it would be possible to incorporate sickness, environment and disease as well as injuries into the health system for military units. Newer and better medicines could be unlocked over time that will help deal with these things. For example, maybe medicines that can treat wounds are available earlier in the game, and they're effective for more lightly wounded individuals. The ability to deal with temperatures or other environmental conditions would be interesting to grant over time perhaps as you deal with them; for example maybe initiating combat in tundra and snow tiles a few times eventually teaches you how to deal with tundra and snow better and from then on, you aren't affected by it as heavily. Would mean civs that get tundra spawns would be stronger on defense against other civs without tundra cities.
     
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  10. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    "Health" (including diseases) was mostly planned for city but yes, adding that property to units too makes sense, we'll see how to design it in parallel with cities.
     
  11. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    The disposition of Wounded Warriors varies with the society/culture. In most ancient cultures, they were 'useful' only as sources of experience and knowledge, but a man not physically capable did not have any Leadership credibility, so they had little influence on the society at large. Alexander the Great regularly sent veterans, even entire units, home with large, even extravagant, donations of Gold so they could become Pro-Alrxander Leaders and opinion-shapers back home, but 'veteran's benefits' were otherwise pretty much unknown as a State-Supported thing. In Europe, even veteran's health care was not provided for until Louis XIV built the Invalides in the late 17th century. In the 18th century, 'veterans' stayed with their units in peacetime, acting as advisors and trainers, so that, for instance, when Friedrich II's Prussian Army marched out on campaign, the strength of each unit actually went down because of the 70+ year old veterans were left behind, who could advise but not keep up with long marches in full kit.
    In short the actual usefulness of recovered Wounded to the rest of society will change, either with changes in Civics/Social Policy or Technology, throughout the game.

    Completely agree that Disease/Sickness has to be incorporated into military units - and civilian units, for that matter. Before the 20th century, disease killed several times more men in military campaigns than weapons did, and terrain/climate had a huge influence on sickness and death rates.
    Marshland/Swamps - was a killer. 'Malaria' is Italian for 'bad air', because it was believed that the smell of rotten vegetation from the swamps/marshes was causing sickness. In fact, of course, the cause was that if you were close enough to the marsh to smell it, you were within the flying range of the mosquitoes!
    Deserts - wiped out armies. At least one Persian army was virtually destroyed trying to cross the Gedrosian desert, and Alexander the Great lost at least a third of his own army trying to do the same thing.
    Jungles/Rainforests - Tropical climate in general, killed off armies and populations not grown up in them. Caucasians from Europe had no chance at all in the American tropics: settlers died in droves in the Caribbean, and the French lost an entire army wiped out largely by disease in what is now Haiti. If you combined, say, semi-tropical climate with marsh, as the English did at Jamestown, Virginia, the result was that they had to ship over 3000 colonists to the place and ended up with less than 300 still alive.
    Tundra/Snow - Russian Winter - need I say more? For that matter, all the exploratory expeditions into northern Canada, Antarctica, around Hudson's Bay: extrapolate their casualties to an army-sized group, and they are as bad as any other terrain on the planet.

    Experience Counts. For a good near-modern example, in the Winter War with Finland in 1939-40 the Soviet Army lost thousands of men to frostbite, equipment failure, and general inability to cope with the terrain and weather. Once the war ended, in May 1940 they started gathering up the experience and translating it into a new Manual for Winter Warfare. It was published in May 1941, and was the basis for equipping and training the military units that launched the Counteroffensive in December 1941. During that counteroffensive the Germans, without the benefit of the experience, lost over 250,000 men to frostbite alone (more than they lost to Soviet Army weapons, in fact). The Soviet Army, throughout 3+ years of war against Germany and against Finland up to above the Arctic Circle, lost less than 10,000 men to Frostbite injuries. Experience, either explicitly applied as in this incidence, or 'customarily' applied by living in the Arctic, the Rainforest, the Desert, makes a world of difference to the effects the terrain/climate will have on you and your units.
    Medicine Counts. The earliest 'medical textbooks' in the ancient near east and Greece include a lot of procedures for treating 'battle wounds' - extracting sling pellets and arrowheads, treating what we now call Traumatic Brain Injury (getting whacked on the head with a mace or club is not indistinguishable to the victim from being blown up by an IED), amputations. And by medicine, that includes 'non-medical' advances as well, in organization and technology. During the Napoleonic Wars the surgeon assigned to the Garde Imperiale, Laffey, invented a set of light 2 and 4-wheeled wagons that could carry stretchers and race onto the battlefield to evacuate wounded at (for the time) high speed back to the surgeons and doctors for treatment. The idea was quickly adopted throughout the French Army (I suspect it is the example behind the Medic Support Unit in Civ VI) and changed the survival rate of wounded dramatically.
    The next dramatic change in Wounded Recovery was Pasteur's 'Germ Theory', which should be a Technology in any game that pretends to be based on history. Even when unevenly applied, as it was in World War One, it resulted, for the first time in history, in over half of the wounded surviving, and an appreciable percentage actually returning to or remaining in uniform.
    The next 'big' Technology Change was Antibiotics in the early 20th century. As a direct result of the combination of Battlefield Evacuation - Larrey's ambulances now motorized and supplemented with transport aircraft like the German Ju-52 flying wounded out of Stalingrad, the US C-47 flying wounded out of everywhere, and the Soviet U-2 ambulance version that could land in a small pasture and carry two stretcher cases to the nearest hospital in hours instead of days - Sulfa drugs and penicillin, and the complete understanding of the effects of germ eradication from food and drinking water, both the German and Soviet Armies in Russia, despite very primitive conditions and extremes of fighting and weather/terrain, returned 60 - 75% of their wounded to military duty. The Soviets even had a category of personnel of 'men wounded more than 5 times and still in uniform' - which would have been simply unthinkable a hundred years earlier.

    Summary: to even semi-accurately represent Attrition and Recovery in military units, and the real effects of climate/terrain on any human activity, Medical as well as Combat casualties have to be included in the 'unit model'. Also the negation of those terrain/climate effects to people brought up in those terrain/climate conditions, and the dramatic changes in the casualty effects of both weapons and climate/terrain caused by Technological advances.
     
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  12. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    I hate to bring up a point that was discussed in the past but I'll do it anyway. Those 2000 warriors still bug me. Is there anyway to make units spawn with less than 100% health? I think the population of a city should heavily limit the rate of unit reinforcement and some of these units should spawn with fewer soldiers.

    I think 2000 per unit is way too high a number to muster from an ancient city or proto-city as it may be in the early game. I'm hoping the answer to this is "yes", and that depending on how large the city is, the cost and starting health of a unit would go down. I'm not sure what determines how many citizens you can draft into military service to replenish combat losses but I think the % of your population should be relatively low.
     
  13. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    We agree (I mean Knasp, you and I), this was integrated in the redesign of the unit's evolution, and the ability to have variable number of personnel for any unit was added in this update.

    In the current version, units have 2 main properties : organization level and equipment classes.

    The organization level represent the ability to control more troops as a single entity with new technologies/concepts.

    ATM the lowest level for infantry units is the "Party" with ~400 personnel and a small "In Camp" buffer of 20 personnel. Names and values are just for testing purpose, they will change, here is a small recap of the current organization levels, "Ancient" may be split in 3 eras with lower starting values.

    Size String Infantry (Frontline/Combat Ready) Infantry (Reserve) Max Supply Line Distance Max Healing (HP/turn)
    Level 0 (Ancient - "Party") I 400 20 5 10
    Level 1 (Classical - "Horde") II 700 40 7 11
    Level 2 (Classical - "Cohorte") III 1000 100 8 12
    Level 3 (Medieval - "Company") III 1500 500 9 14
    Level 4 (Renaissance - "Brigade") X 3000 1000 12 16
    Level 5 (Industrial - "Division") XX 5000 2000 20 18
    Level 6 (Modern - "Division") XX 6000 4000 26 20
    Level 7 (Atomic - "Division") XX 5000 5000 33 25
    Level 8 (Information - "Brigade") X 4000 4000 39 30


    The equipment define the type of unit, we now have a "melee class" for weapons that will cover the complete upgrade path of the unit: warriors start with blunt weapons, and will switch to spears when available (captured, looted from camp, built/traded/transferred by cities) then swords then pikes, the type of the units changing when an equipment class representing that type is the most used, see this update.

    Again this is for testing, the type of equipment will change when introducing the separation between Standing Army / Mercenaries / Conscription, which was discussed on pages 3.

    Limitation by population should be added around that time.
     
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  14. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    Amazing! I want to add that I don't think blunt weapons are necessary. Spears are hundreds of thousands of years old, being developed before our ancestors split from Neanderthals. I think early melee units should carry stone spears rather than the clubs they have now. This would be more accurate in depicting the weapons that people would have fought with.

    What is the plan for units that are out of supply range? Do units have a lifespan? By this I mean that in real life people get old and die. If I send my unit far out of supply range where I can no longer reinforce them, will the soldiers eventually die? Or will my scouts just live forever in the wilderness?
     
  15. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    France
    I plan to have a "loyalty" property for units, the longer you're away, the lower it gets, and maybe switch it to a barbarian unit at some point (combined with morale/desertion)

    That will also depend on how we manage population and ethnicity on tiles (and in turn how units, as an organized group of soldiers are living on those tiles, meaning the "400" soldiers shown at turn 25, 3860BC are not the same "400" soldiers shown at turn 26, 3840BC)

    But there will be definitively temporary units with Mercenaries / Conscription.
     
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  16. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I wish I could've answered this sooner, but it has taken me some time to come up with a good answer. I know I'm a realism/simulationism nut, so I really wanted to look up actual data. Especially since I didn't find any good summary or approximation.
    Considering the scale of the mod, I didn't think individual "Unit Type" numbers would suffice since most armies were bigger than 10000, meaning that smaller divisions would bring more units than you specified above. Also the information was very limited for the early eras, and in any case unit types and sizes likely varied a lot depending on place and time.
    So in order to answer your question, I opted to gather info on army size and composition in various Civs and with regards to population. I have actually compiled some data regarding the population of many Civilizations, their share of urban/rural pop, army size and so on, that I'm gonna finish as soon as possible. Anyway, since the topic of army- and unit sizes have been on my mind, I've really wanted to contribute, so I started looking for data on Battles.

    I know you love numbers Gedemon ;), so I've compiled a juicy table of data, copied from Wikipedia. I went through the "List of Battles before 301" (AD) and I've gathered the basic info from all battles listed until 1 BC, from the Battle of Megiddo (1457 BC) to Battle of Alexandria (30 BC).
    I excluded all battles that didn't give numbers (army size) for both sides. I also sorted Land battles into rough regions, and put Naval battles in a separate sheet. All in all it took me a lot of time to finish, manually copying and pasting all that info, and I am sure that it could've been done in no time, if I had actually known some web-programming...

    Anyway, the sheets include estimates on:
    • Army sizes (numbers)
    • Unit types (numbers)
    • Cavalry (numbers, % of total)
    • Infantry (numbers)
    • Allied infantry & cavalry (numbers, %)
    • Mercenaries (numbers, %)
    • KIA (numbers, %)
    • WIA (numbers, %)
    • Captured (numbers, %)
    I've also divided the total number of soldiers into Divisions (10,000), Legions (5,000) and 2 x Cohorts (1000). So that you could easily see how many in-game units would be required, in order to represent the historical army.

    Some observations
    The average army size for this early period (including the first battle with recorded numbers):
    Spoiler Army sizes - summary :

    Time span (BC) Average army size Divisions (10,000) Legions (5,000) 2 x Cohorts (1000)
    Battle of Megiddo 1457 BC 16000 vs 12500 2 vs 1 3 vs 3 16 vs 13
    Pre-600 37190 4 7 37
    600-501 (inflated according to modern scholars) 115270 12 23 115
    500-401 33726 3 7 34
    400-301 59486 6 12 59
    300-201 60117 6 12 60
    200-101 82793 8 17 83
    100-1 53388 5 11 53
    1457-1 BC 63139 6 13 63


    • Archers, slingers and such are counted as Infantry and more specifically included in Light infantry estimates. Sadly enough, precise numbers for these units were not listed.
    • Numbers on different unit types was usually missing, or would require deeper studies on specific battles.
    • There is some confusion regarding the difference between Allies and Mercenaries in the data, and I believe there's a certain overlap.
    • Of course there were more battles occuring, even before Megiddo. The data is limited to what has been recorded in writing. But I find it likely that other battles occuring in this time period would've been smaller in scale. On the other hand, I think that these numbers should be seen as a sort of maximum, i.e. the maximum sized army that can be fielded during these eras (on an earth map).

    Below is the link to the data. I've allowed commenting, so that people can critique errors.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zIfcz1emopykHk5rzYidjkoNPDnigfJxavvwqS_2EWU/edit?usp=sharing

    I hope that it is of some use!

    (Final note: I haven't gone through Alexander's armies in detail or some Roman armies (that only listed legions), so there's some Cavalry and other unit types that are lacking numbers. However, the total numbers for each side should be correct.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  17. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    101
    I'm not so sure that prehistoric blunt weapons are unrealistic, but having a building to produce them is somewhat overkill, likewise goes for wooden spears. But mining flint or obisidian for making spear/arrowsheads, or latter bronze, could require more effort, and possibly even a "Building" or improvement.
    If the mod is to start before 4000 BC, then you'd have the difference between skilled hunters/warriors carrying slings, bows or spears (Recruited units) while unskilled peasants/farmers would probably bring clubs, axes, or just about any item that can be used as a weapon (Conscripted units).

    I kind of agree, and in some cases your units could simply die if you send them too far, like if there was a shipwreck or some other disaster, diseases etc. Generally, units that are out of supply should desert (return home). Personally, I'd want to reduce the ability to send Scout so far away from your cities, either by restricting their ability to venture far away without supply, or by making the Scouts very vulnerable to barbarians, diseases, random accidents, losing their maps.
    If you wish to keep the Scouting units, it would be preferable to reduce the view distance of all other units to just 1 tile, and let the Scout units view 2 tiles. Or maybe the Scout unit could be sneaky, like a "submarine", i.e. being invisible to the enemy until they're adjacent and the Scouts are on open ground.
     
  18. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    For unit stacking, how does this function? Do stacked units move as a single body or individually? I vaguely remember in pre-1upt civ games that units would be attacked individually in order but I'm not sure how that applies here.

    My question is if I put 4 units of 10k soldiers each into a tile, are they all attacked at the same time if the enemy attacks my tile? If so, would it be easier to have a sort of "grouping" unit that represented the combination of each unit and that could be moved around on it's own with the individual units as both cargo and constituents to its stats? (For example, the aircraft carrier can hold planes and as the carrier moves around, the planes essentially move around. Instead though, the grouping unit's stats are modified by the units it carries inside of it. You could use the same UI used by the carrier to represent the units within the grouped unit and the same interface to select a unit inside to move it out of the grouping)

    If units that share a tile do not interact in this way (meaning if I attack the tile, I'm only attacking the first unit or something), I don't support this sort of thing. I think 1upt was created to force players to use the map more strategically. If we're breaking 1upt in order to show more realistic army sizes, I'm ok with that, but I don't think having completely different armies sharing a tile is a good idea.

    If you are talking about the first option, that's sort of like a more advanced version of corps and armies, which I like, especially because it allows you to remove the parts of the army if you so choose.

    On the topic, what limits the size of the army? I would think apart from supply issues, you would have organizational problems. With all the food in the world, you couldn't organize 100 000 soldiers in one place without radios and a complex and well-organized chain of command. (Although perhaps 100k soldiers in one place is a bit extreme).


    EDIT: on the topic of army sizes, I found this interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hundred_Years'_War_battles
     
  19. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
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    France
    For stacking, the plan is to have them moving separately (unless someone volunteers to code the UI and the AI)

    It'll share some features with R.E.D WWII and my Combat & Stacking Overhaul for civ5, and new ones for the mod:
    - support fire (preparation, counter-preparation, counter-fire, ...) of ranged units on both plots (or in range in later era) when a melee unit initiate an attack
    - then the "best" defender (chosen by simulated health left after attack) is opposed to the attacker (stats may be affected by the other units on both plots)
    - collateral damage may be applied to the other units on the defending plot
    - depending of its mobility, attacker may have the ability to destroy/capture resource/materiel in "reserve" or "rear" section of the units on the defending plot

    The first 2 are impossible to do now, we'll have to wait for the DLL source code to be released.
     
  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    Since you are now marching right through my area of interest (Master's Thesis on the organization of Alexander the Great's army at Gaugamela, 15 books on the organization of the German and Soviet Armies in WWII, several articles on the tactics and organization of the armies of the War of the Spanish Succession and late 17th century Europe) I just gotta throw in a few cents' worth here:

    First, all the earliest military units we have any records of (Sumer, New Kingdom Egypt, Akkad, for examples) used a Decimal organization, with the smallest unit being 10 men. Larger units were 50 to 100, or 5 - 10 units of 10 each. After that it gets varied, because one Sumerian city state could only field an entire army of 648 men: smaller than a modern Battalion!

    Second, based on those Stone Age Tribes that have been studied in the 20th century (in South America and Southeast Asia primarily), the basic weapons for both hunting and warfare were throwing weapons or weak bows. The reason is simple: the same weapons were used for Hunting as for Warfare, and it is almost impossible to walk up to a deer or a rabbit and club him over the head, and trying to do the same thing to a Cape Buffalo or American Bison will just make him mad, followed by your immediate demise and dismemberment. Distance is Safe: everybody threw spears/javelins or shot arrows (and became amazingly adept at dodging them). Weapons are almost always 'crafted' by specialists within the tribe, because even a simple throwing spear for maximum range, accuracy and effect, must be as 'streamlined' as possible and balanced for a good throw - breaking the nearest branch off a tree just won't do.

    Finally, there are some specific figures for 'standard unit sizes' that you should probably consider. I'll see if I can reference it to the data from your table:

    Level 0 (Ancient - "Party")| 400 men plus 20 'support'
    .....There is a remarkable coherence for a 'basic ancient unit' in size. Here are some examples:
    200 - 250 men - a 'Sa', the basic tactical unit of the New Kingdom Egyptian army
    300 men - the Bodyguard of Knights of a Spartan King (ref: Thermopolyae)
    300 men - the 'Sacred Band' of Thebes (Greek, not Egyptian)
    200 - 300 men - the 'soldurii' the sworn bodyguards of a Celtic/Gallic chief
    200 - 300 men - the 'companions' - also sworn guards/fighters of a German chief
    300 men - the 'Agema' or Spearhead squadron of Alexander's Companion Cavalry - which he almost always personally led.
    I suggest, that your basic unit be a Band of 300 men, with 30 'support' which (based on the evidence from Greek, Egyptian, and the Stone Age tribal practice) would be largely very young men or even women acting as bearers of supplies and out to learn 'first-hand' what a warrior's job was all about.

    Level 1 (Classical - "Horde")|I 700 men plus 40 'support'
    ... 'Horde' comes from the Turkic 'Ordo' which was a unit of 10,000. While Horde has come to be a General word, it's original meaning is very specific as to size - also, the earliest record of it isn't until the late Classical - early Medieval period. Instead, the Roman Cohort was 480 - 600 men, and the largest 'tactical' unit in Akkad was 600 men (based on the amount of bread rations they provided), and the largest unit of Gallic 'Soldurii' mentioned is 600 men. You see the trend here...
    Early Classical, then, would be the Cohort of 600 men, with 10% Support, or 60.

    Level 2 (Classical - "Cohorte"III 1000 men plus 100 'support'
    ...Even armies that got 'sophisticated' later on seem to have started out with a Decimal organization. The Classical Greeks used a File of 8 to 12 men, so a 'Taxeis' was a unit of 100 files, or 800 - 1200 men. Alexander's phalanx, or 'Pezhetairoi' (Foot Companions) had a file of 16, so were about 1600 strong. ALL the Steppe 'horse archer' armies (that we have good information on: Huns, Mongols, Turks, Bulgars) had units of 10, 100, 1000, and 10,000. The problem is, all the 1000 man units have very specific titles unique to the individual armies - not appropriate as a Generic unit size indicator. One possibility is to use the Roman term for an auxiliary unit of 1000, which is also related to the Persian word for '1000'. So
    Late Classical - the Miliaria of 1000 men plus 100 Support

    Level 3 (Medieval - "Company")III 1500 men plus 500 'support'
    .... It is hard to find specific tactical or military units in the Medieval period, since most 'units' were simply Everybody You Could Raise from a given village or area. The smallest 'unit' was the Lance, consisting of a Knight and 4 - 8 'support' including an archer or two, squires, and supply-haulers. After that you have 'retinues' of all sizes. In combat, however, all the Medieval Armies were divided into 'Battles'. Size would vary, as would the number. Minimum seems to have been 3 Battles: Right, Left, and Center, but there could be up to 5 or more: Right, Left, Center, Reserve, Vanguard or Advance. Therefore:
    Medieval: the Battle of 1500 men plus 500 'Support'

    Level 4 (Renaissance - "Brigade")X 3000 men plus 1000 'support'
    .... If, as the game does, by 'Renaissance' you mean the late 15th century to the end of the 17th century, then this is close. It was during this period that the Spanish organized 'Tercios' (consisting of 3 'Cornuelas', or Colonelcies of, you guessed it, about 1000 men each), Maurice of Nassau organized pike and shot 'battalions' of 600 - 1000 men into Brigades of 3 -4 battalions each, and the Swedes formed 'Brigades' of 1000 - 4000 men with artillery, pikes, muskets all in one. By the 1690s all (western European) armies were organized into Brigades on the battlefield, BUT they were not permanent organizations - they were formed out of the regiments of cavalry and infantry on hand, commanded by the senior regimental commander, and usually all one arm: no mixed infantry/cavalry/artillery units.
    Renaissance - Brigade of 3000 men. The amount of Support depends on what you mean by that: the average 7-800 man battalion might have another 200 - 300 officer's servants, supply cart drivers, preachers, prostitutes, and even soldier's families tagging along. That could translate into up to 1000 'support' for your brigade, but it varied wildly, and most good commanders tried to keep the 'tail' to a minimum, periodically driving much of the 'support' away from the army.

    Level 5 (Industrial - "Division") XX 5000 men plus 2000 'support'
    ..... The modern Division was invented in the French Army in the last half of the 18th century, so right at the beginning of the Industrial Era. The concept was to have a force that had not only 2 - 3 infantry or cavalry Brigades, but also Combat Support for them: 2 or more artillery batteries, some 'sappers' or 'pioneers' (combat engineers), some Light Infantry as scouts or skirmishers ahead of the Mass. The basic manpower of an infantry Division was 2 brigades of 2 regiments each, total 6000 to 10,000 infantry plus 12 - 20 artillery pieces manned by 400 - 600 men. IF you assume the basic strength is only those men actually firing muskets or rifles, then the numbers come down to 5 - 8000 men plus 1000 - 1500 direct support.
    Industrial - Division of 7000 men plus 2000 'support'

    Level 6 (Modern - "Division") XX 6000 men plus 4000 'support'
    .....For Modern we pretty much have to take the Division of 1914 - 1935, assuming the 'Atomic' Era starts with the first serious atom research in the late 1930s and so puts WWII in the 'Atomic' Era. The actual historical figures are wildly variable. Most of the major powers' divisions in 1914 were 10,000 or more infantry plus another 10,000 cavalry, artillery, engineers, communications, HQ, supply, and medical troops. By 1918, those same countries (Germany, Austria, Russia, Britain, France) had Divisions of about 6000 infantry plus another 6000 artillery, engineers, HQ, communications, supply and medical troops. By the early 1930s most of the 'peacetime' divisions had expanded a little, but, for instance, German and US Army divisions were each about 7000 infantry (9 x 800 man battalions) plus 8000 men in artillery, engineer, reconnaissance, HQ, supply, transport, communications, and medical (including veterinarian for the horse-drawn German units!) 'support' units.
    So, based on that:
    Modern - Division of 8000 men plus 7000 'support'

    Level 7 (Atomic - "Division") XX 5000 men plus 5000 'support'
    ... World War Two. The Infantry Division ranged from 10 - 14,000 men (Soviet Army) to 15-16,000 men (US, British Army) to 17,800 men in the German Army at the beginning of the war, devolving into a 12,000 man unit by the end (theoretically). BUT increasingly, each division also had a non-divisional 'slice' of men and equipment: German divisions of 12 - 15,000 men average had another 8 - 11,000 men outside the divisional organization to provide supplies, artillery, engineer, medical, HQ, and antitank/antiaircraft support, while US divisions of 15,000 or so men had a whopping 30,000 + men outside the division to support it - admittedly, a lot of those were to support the division a continent or the Pacific Ocean away from the US homeland, but even 'on the battlefield', the average US division in Northern Europe in 1944-45 had another dozen battalions of non-divisional antitank, artillery, antiaircraft, combat and construction engineers, tanks, and communications assets in support.
    I think the bulk of the Logistics Support (in the US case, that would be at least 20,000 of the 30,000 extra men in the 'division slice') should not be included in the unit regularly, but something the Civ is going to have to spend a lot of resources to get. It's easy to forget that in WWII, only 2 nations managed to maintain dozens of divisions 1000s of miles away from their homeland/home base over sea connections, and as a result both of those nations (US and UK) had armies that, on paper, were a fraction of the number of divisions of their opponents.
    With that in mind, the divisions themselves should probably be about:
    Atomic - Division of 8000 men plus 10,000 'support'

    Level 8 (Information - "Brigade") X 4000 men plus 4000 'support'
    ... The brigade-level unit has definitely become the 'standard' operational combat command in the Current Era, but the WWII brigade (average 3 - 5000 men) has about doubled in size. On the other hand, the number of men actually in contact with the enemy on purpose has gone down - a modern brigade has about the same 3 - 4 infantry battalions the British/Soviet/German brigades had in WWII, but have more Support within the brigade, and, again, a huge amount of Support outside the brigade - not even counting the massive personnel and equipment resources required to Airlift a brigade to anywhere in the world, a capacity that only 2 - 3 countries even theoretically have at this moment. That said, and assuming most of the Logistical Support is going to be a separate Resource Eater outside the 'unit', the unit should probably be:
    Information - Brigade of 4000 men plus 6000 'support' - only now the Support includes not only the artillery, antitank, antiaircraft, engineer, communications, etc. of the Atomic Era, but also Helicopters, Drones, Satellite Communications/postioning, and Cruise Missiles
     
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