Unprecedented Modding Tools

"unlimited" does not really mean unlimited in the sense that you can do anything you want

the limitation are:

1. the modder ability to mod , programming language, 3d graphics

ex: if you can't program then there are certain aspect of the modding tools you can't use.
if you don't know how to make and animate 3d models then you can't really create completely new units.

2. computer software , hardware

i.e.
it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a mod with 10,000 civs and have it run on your comp
it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a 1000 x 1000 tiles map and have it run.
it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it so that each unit detailed enough to have (100,000 - 200,000 polygons - an awesome detailed model should have this many faces) and have it run.

you see the point

unlimited here means there thousands of things you can do to mod the game.
ranging from say possible importing a unit from say Oblivion or Fall Out 3 (if you somehow find a way to make the oblivion model decrease from 10,000-20,000 polygons to about 1000-2000 polygons)
creating the unit from scratch, make new leaders - i.e., draw Hitler yourself to change how combat mechanics work, how AI respond to you, re-add stacking, recreating the concept of religion within the game etc.
 
Also, who here was the person who said they're not releasing any mod tools on the initial release?

Me. There's plenty of interviews floating around where one or other of the Firaxis or 2K people said the mod tools would be released near day 0, but not on release day.
 
According to http://store.steampowered.com/app/8930/

Modability: With unprecedented modding tools, players will have unlimited options for modifying Civilization V any way they like.


Anyone know exactly what they're referring to? Also, who here was the person who said they're not releasing any mod tools on the initial release?

This sounds like it was pulled straight from the Intern's Marketing Compendium v.1

I think there's a law somewhere that states you can't describe a software feature without the words unprecedented, unlimited, and options.

We're just going to have to see.
 
Honestly, all the gushing over the "great modability" just kind of annoys me. It means nothing to me and most of the people who play. I don't care how easy they think they're making it to mod, I'm positive that an average guy like me who knows sweet crap-all about scripting languages and whatever else will not be able to whip up a dominatrix outfit for Catherine. The vast majority of people who play this game will still be waiting for that elite 5% or so to do it for them. I guess I just wonder why they're making it a main selling point and going on about "unprecedented," "unlimited," etc., when this is above the heads of the vast majority of players. They're trying to make the game look simpler so they don't put off people who were previously intimidated, but at the same time making one of their main selling point something that sounds like you need to take computer classes to use at all.
 
if your talking simple changes like making a swordsman stronger or giving it specific bonuses, then its really straight forward if you have the slightest computer knowledge. Creating rule changes, 3d leaders and other stuff is of course harder and left for that elite 5% or so. Progamming is just not that simple and thats why thousands of people make 6 figures doing it.
 
Honestly, all the gushing over the "great modability" just kind of annoys me. It means nothing to me and most of the people who play. I don't care how easy they think they're making it to mod, I'm positive that an average guy like me who knows sweet crap-all about scripting languages and whatever else will not be able to whip up a dominatrix outfit for Catherine. The vast majority of people who play this game will still be waiting for that elite 5% or so to do it for them. I guess I just wonder why they're making it a main selling point and going on about "unprecedented," "unlimited," etc., when this is above the heads of the vast majority of players. They're trying to make the game look simpler so they don't put off people who were previously intimidated, but at the same time making one of their main selling point something that sounds like you need to take computer classes to use at all.

Well, yes. Of course. I don't mod games, but I care very much about whether or not games are moddable or not. Because if they are, it means that there well be great mods. It is a big selling point for many people, including people who don't mod.
 
Anyone know exactly what they're referring to?

Only partially.
Civ5 will have the same good file structure like Civ4, many things are handled in XML, so they are easy accessible and modifiable.

But take a look at this preview, there are 2 nice screenshots in it.
 
Hey first post, Civ games have already been easy to mod. At least for making small tweaks like changing upgrade costs, giving naval units extra moves, adding units for variety sake, etc. Hopefully a good xml editor comes about soon if one isn't released with the mod tools. Of course most of us will have to rely on that elite 5% but modding is still important.

I already have a few units I'd like to add for variety sake. Mainly bringing some back from previous games - Marine/Modern Infantry, Guerrilla (one of my favorite units from civ 3), Machine Gun, ICBM, Explorer, AEGIS Cruiser, Grenadier, a Cuirassier instead of the Lancer, Spies, maybe even a few more futuristic units to augment or even replace the Giant Death Robot. We'll just be have to wait for the good modders to make some good skins, animations is all.
 
Hopefully a good xml editor comes about soon if one isn't released with the mod tools.
We really don't need Firaxis to release an XML editor. All we need are text editors that support syntax highlighting, such as Notepad++, which is what I use. I suppose if one was willing to fork over the money, one could purchase XMLSpy, which seems to be what the Firaxis devs use, but there's really no need.

I do hope that the model and animation format hasn't changed too much from Civ4 --> Civ5, because I like adding units, but modelling/animation as well as graphics/image editing are really not my forte.
 
I would love to see modding tools, but frankly I'll be satisfied with just a manageable XML structure and access to the LUA and C++ portions of the game with my own dev tools.
 
Me. There's plenty of interviews floating around where one or other of the Firaxis or 2K people said the mod tools would be released near day 0, but not on release day.

The last one I remember reading was the recent StrategyInformer interview with Jon Shafer, where this was said:
Strategy Informer: We also spoke last time about the Mod Tools you will be releasing for the game, although you didn't know when. Do you have any new information on that?

Jon Shafer: I'm afraid not. We definitely have stuff planned but we're not sure on what the release time-table is. I know with Civ IV the SDK came out like, six months after release? I don't know if it's going to be similar, or earlier, or even later. We definitely have plans, but sadly I don't know what they are.
 
Strategy Informer: We also spoke last time about the Mod Tools you will be releasing for the game, although you didn't know when. Do you have any new information on that?

Jon Shafer: I'm afraid not. We definitely have stuff planned but we're not sure on what the release time-table is. I know with Civ IV the SDK came out like, six months after release? I don't know if it's going to be similar, or earlier, or even later. We definitely have plans, but sadly I don't know what they are.

Good lord! That's an absolutely tragic comment. How long ago was that comment? We have plans but the lead designer doesn't know what they are. WhAT!
 
I'm not into modding but I've looked over xml, I'm a programmer of 20+ years, and I could mod down to the core DLL level if I wanted to. Anyways...

I'm not seeing the "unprecedented modding tools" thing.

Looks like all they're providing is a beefier map editor. There's a LOT more to deep modding than editing maps and making scenarios. :/ Maybe the map editor will have some way to hook in scripts for scenario type events?

It seems like not much has changed, really.

A lot of "modding" will be tweaking xml values in the editor of your choice - with you the modder having to dig thru the xml files/folder structures to figure out where stuff is that you want to change.

Then there will be script/lua editing, again in the editor of your choice, similar to xml editing.

Deep modding of the core DLL via SDK when it hits will again be tied to your editor of choice, and you'll need a compiler but that's not really a big deal for people capable of doing the coding (they'll have one or get one for free online).

Graphics will still require expensive software few have, but your average joe modder probably would not have a clue how to do animated graphics anyways. Graphics/art are kind of specialized.

For a lot of modding I don't see how the map editor figures in at all.

To me "unprecedented modding tools" would be have more features, some kind of slim graphics capacity (wouldn't need to be a full blown 3D studio) for creating units and buildings. Maybe have some kind of app that ties the various elements together, like an IDE with some kind of index/search capacity that documents the xml and script files. It wouldn't necessarily have to include editors for the files, it could kick of YOUR editors based on file extensions, but it could tie it all together. These kinds of things would be unprecented. Unheard of and unrealistic too probably. :P
 
Good lord! That's an absolutely tragic comment. How long ago was that comment? We have plans but the lead designer doesn't know what they are. WhAT!

Sorry, meant to include a link to the whole article
It was published very recently (13 Sept), but there is no way to know when the interview was actually conducted.

To me "unprecedented modding tools" would be have more features, some kind of slim graphics capacity (wouldn't need to be a full blown 3D studio) for creating units and buildings. Maybe have some kind of app that ties the various elements together, like an IDE with some kind of index/search capacity that documents the xml and script files. It wouldn't necessarily have to include editors for the files, it could kick of YOUR editors based on file extensions, but it could tie it all together. These kinds of things would be unprecented. Unheard of and unrealistic too probably. :P
They did drop some hints that there would be some sort of LUA dev tool included with the game...

...with the developers eh...lucky you.
Great...can you ask them which version of Visual Studio I will be able to use to mod the SDK.
Not 2003 anymore, I'm sure...but is it 2008? or will I be able to use my nice shiny new copy of VS2010?
Do they have any recommendations for an IDE for LUA developement?

(I know you probably can't answer these now...but you might ask them so you can tell us later :) )
I just asked, and Jon said you'll need 2008. It's probable that 2010 will work but it has not been tested.

As for the recommended Lua IDE, I have an exciting answer, but you'll have to wait a little while to get it ;)
 
We have plans but the lead designer doesn't know what they are.

The lead designer is not the keeper of the schedule (that would be the producer).
 
To me "unprecedented modding tools" would be have more features, some kind of slim graphics capacity (wouldn't need to be a full blown 3D studio) for creating units and buildings. Maybe have some kind of app that ties the various elements together, like an IDE with some kind of index/search capacity that documents the xml and script files. It wouldn't necessarily have to include editors for the files, it could kick of YOUR editors based on file extensions, but it could tie it all together. These kinds of things would be unprecented. Unheard of and unrealistic too probably. :P

That's what I was thinking and hoping for, something along those lines.
 
The vast majority of people who play this game will still be waiting for that elite 5% or so to do it for them. I guess I just wonder why they're making it a main selling point and going on about "unprecedented," "unlimited," etc., when this is above the heads of the vast majority of players.

While I understand your basic point, I think you're underestimating the "possibility" factor, which ties directly to the consumer confidence.

That is, there are a lot of people who have ideas for mods they'd like to see. In many of these cases, the issue really boils down to knowing whether what they want is even going to be possible for that top 5%. I'm not talking about a simple gameplay mod like boosting the power of certain units by one or two, or adding an existing ability to another unit. Back in Civ 3, I'd give all archer-type units a range 0 bombardment attack. This did nothing on offense, but if a stack/city containing the archer and a spearman was attacked, the archer would fire a free shot before the spearman took the brunt of the attack. Apparently, it was such a good idea that Firaxis added this in a later expansion. But it was a trivial change to make, and anyone could have done it.

That sort of change should be trivial for anyone to do. But for Civ 5, the mod I really want? If I own a tile that a combat is taking place in, all of my units in that tile should get a +10% combat boost. (This'd have a HUGE impact on the ability to invade another civ; not only would their cities and chokepoints be harder to take, but the defender's counterattacks would be stronger.) While simple in theory, this is essential for my work on a future-era mod, because otherwise the game would end through conquest long before reaching the new content. And yet, I have no idea whether this sort of change is even possible for modders to make.

Or another part of that same mod would be to remove the Spaceship as a victory condition, and have it instead trigger an event (for ten turns after launch, everyone's in a golden age and all wars are paused for a cease fire, but the civ who launched it gets an extra tech, a massive diplo boost, a new Natural Wonder, and a longer golden age). I have no idea whether this sort of event system is feasible for a mod.

Likewise, if you go over to the Ideas board, there's a great thread on adding religions back in to Civ 5 by way of "Holy City States", like the Vatican, that found Civ4-style religions and spread it to the main civs. This'd be a huge boost to gameplay, but simply put, no one knows if it's even possible to do something close to this.
(And that's not even counting the people trying to remake Master of Magic or Alpha Centauri using the Civ engine, which seems to come up every time a new Civ game comes out. But hey, they DID remake Colonization in Civ4, so who knows?)

So when Firaxis brags about unprecedented modding ability, it serves its purpose: it makes me think that it's more likely the sort of mods I want will eventually be possible. If the only things people can mod are basic unit stats, maps, and unit artwork (which is the extent of the "moddability" of most games), then half my ideas won't work and it makes it far less likely that I'd stick with the game in the long term (say, long enough to buy the inevitable expansions).
 
I really hope that you can have working 10000 polygon models in civ5. I mean having just 1000 polygons is a joke: no serious game has such poor models anymore...
 
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