Unrealistic combat results taking cities?

[pat1968]

Hi

Recently got civ (civ 3 complete) and having a blast.. but have had some really wierd things happen in my war with the vikings.

Id got no saltpeter, and was fighting with infantry and guerillas mainly.. the vikings had pikemen/berserkers/and spearmen mainly, but were just starting to get musketeers

So, defense 3 tops, (2 for spearmen). I figured even fortified it wouldnt be too hard to take the cities, i built about 40 infantry and used geurillas id already got.

Imagine my surprise at losing a lot of infantry, to spearmen and pikes.

A one off i could imagine - but i struggle everytime i see industrial age infantry losing to ancient age spearmen...

And the stats (fortified gives 3 defense, against 6 attack over 4 rounds) should have meant many less troops lost

So the question i have is... assuming no wall, do defensive units get a special bonus of some sort when in a city?. I am really struggling to get my head around it.

Thanks

 

[Arexander]

They will get terrain defencebonus (whatever is under the city) and the fortifybonus of 25%. Is the enemy city a town(1-6), a city(6-12) or a metropolis(12+)? If it's a city they'll get an additional defencebonus of 25% and if its a metro they'll get 50%(?) defencive bonus.

Also, the RNG can have a big affection on the result. Sometimes it even feels that the RNG is heavily on the computers side because of many losses against obsolete units.

 

[pat1968]

They were cities, so that would be +25 i guess... hadnt thought of the terrain bonus under city though thanks.

Id sort of convinced myself the RNG was in their favour, because i lost a guerilla fortified in a city to their first attack of the war (think it was with against a swordsman). Some...colourful language resulted lol. Amazing how 'into it' all you can get

Anyway thanks again

 

[vmxa]

There are several good combat calculators that will give you the nominal odds. These are only a guide as the RNG is far too strong. Cavs do much better than infantry as they have retreat. You do not have salt, so not an option.

They should smash spears though and do very well against pikes. Muskets are starting to get to where it will be painful to attack cities. Make sure you are not fighting across a river, that will add a big boost to the defenders.

In the end, it is not hard to get a bad roll and take losses with superior units in Civ.

 

[vmxa]

Whoops I was brain dead again.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, pat1968!

Also, don't forget rivers. A unit being attacked from across a river gets another defensive bonus. I want to say 25%, but I won't swear to that. So if you're attacking a fortified spear in a city on a hill across a river, that's gonna be one tough spear! Take some artillery along to soften them up, and use fast attackers that can retreat if they're losing.

 

[Takhisis]

Are you preserving the random seed? If you're not, then you can replay each turn until you get to whatever you desire. It's not very healthy for you gaming skills and is a terrible waste of time, so i wouldn't advise it, but sometimes it's that or lose.

 

[Spoonwood]

Guerillas actually have a defense of 6, as well as an attack of 6. Cavalry and knights have a defense of 3.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Thats one about this game that can drive you crazy, the odds on certain attacks should be in your favor but don't work out that way. Watching a Mace kick your Musket's arse with nary a scratch and then your Cavalry can't kill them does bad things to your soul. This whole experience is summed up in a smiley:

 

[Spoonwood]

Thats one about this game that can drive you crazy, the odds on certain attacks should be in your favor but don't work out that way. Watching a Mace kick your Musket's arse with nary a scratch and then your Cavalry can't kill them does bad things to your soul. This whole experience is summed up in a smiley

Once you've had a 4 cavalry army take out a fortified 4/4 infantry in a size 12 city on a hill you'll probably stop feeling that way.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Once you've had a 4 cavalry army take out a fortified 4/4 infantry in a size 12 city on a hill you'll probably stop feeling that way.

THAT would be an attack I would not make without artillery, it is a great way to lose an army or three. I would even hesitate with a 4 tank army.

 

[Spoonwood]

I did it plenty of times in my current Huge Mayan game I have going. Discounting hills, my armies almost always won. I lost maybe 2 or 3 armies in maybe some 50+ attacks on infantry in size 12 cities, and I know I won a hill battle or two. Try it sometime and see what happens!

 

[pat1968]

THAT would be an attack I would not make without artillery, it is a great way to lose an army or three. I would even hesitate with a 4 tank army.

I dont know if people are discussing multiplayer..but ive yet to see an AI army?

No idea what they are doing with the leaders.

And, must admit i prefer bombers to artillery, i dont like the need to escort it all the time, or am i missing something?

 

[Arexander]

Yes, bombers are more efficient. But they don't have defensive bombardment, which is sometimes a huge bonus for human player. So I usually keep some artillery under my big stacks for some defensive borbardment and to bombard cities, resources or units within their range.

And as I tend to play scenarios and mods rather than epic games that makes some differences again. Sometimes there aren't bombers or fighters in the game.

 

[Spoonwood]

Pat1968,

If the AIs have Flight, bombers can get shot down before bombardment, while artillery won't. If you haven't already,you may also want to check out Moonsinger's excellent article on artillery proper. There do exist situations where the AIs can get Flight and even experienced players need to face bombers (20k game perhaps, a spaceship game, a Sid game), but in most games, fyi, I believe experienced players agree that either it's possible to buy a bunch of cavalry armies and/or buy/upgrade enough artilleries, that most wars *can* end before anyone reaches Flight. So, perhaps that's a challenge for the future for you.

 

[pat1968]

Well i think ive had possibly the strangest combat results yet... 2 veteran man o wars sent to sink two galleys on their way to invade me... the result?. Two dead man o wars!

Grrrrr RNG hates me.

 

[Snarkhunter]

Well i think ive had possibly the strangest combat results yet... 2 veteran man o wars sent to sink two galleys on their way to invade me... the result?. Two dead man o wars!

Hardly. Try sending an elite battleship to sink a transport. . . and watching it sink to the bottom of the briny, briny deep

kk

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Yes, bombers are more efficient. But they don't have defensive bombardment, which is sometimes a huge bonus for human player. So I usually keep some artillery under my big stacks for some defensive borbardment and to bombard cities, resources or units within their range.

You also (in regular games) get access to artillery a lot earlier, so you can set aside a town or two to make cats/trebs/cannon, then mass upgrade to Artillery once you get RP.

 

[andrewv42]

They will get terrain defencebonus (whatever is under the city) and the fortifybonus of 25%. Is the enemy city a town(1-6), a city(6-12) or a metropolis(12+)? If it's a city they'll get an additional defencebonus of 25% and if its a metro they'll get 50%(?) defencive bonus.

Also, the RNG can have a big affection on the result. Sometimes it even feels that the RNG is heavily on the computers side because of many losses against obsolete units.

The true value of these defense bonuses are uncertain to me. The Civ3 civilopedia states that cities give a 50% defensive bonus, and metros give a 100% defensive bonus.

I've also read in an article in the Civ3 War Academy that the fortification bonus was 50%.

 

[Aabraxan]

I haven't read the articles (or haven't in a very long time), and don't have an editor handy, but fortification is different than fortification. A unit can be fortified out on open ground.