Upgrading Armies

[drsteve]

There may already be a post on this topic, but I couldn't find it.
IS there some way to upgrade the units that you have put into armies in C3C? Or are you stuck with obsolete units in armies for ever more? I've been playing the conquests scenarios, and have had several armies filled with obsolete units (e.g. Legionary I in Rise of Rome). I've tried everything that I can think of to upgrade them once I've made the units obsolete, but nothing seems to work. I can upgrade everything else (even other units in the same city as the army) but can't upgrade the units in the army. Very very frustrating!

 

[wilbill]

You can't upgrade the units in your armies. But an army retains a lot of value for quite a while after its component units are obsolete.

 

[drsteve]

Thanks for the quick reply. I would have thought that the failure to be able to upgrade armies was a problem though. I mean, in historical terms, is it reasonable to think that a civ that has upgraded all its units to use those new-fangled rifles, would keep an army of bronze age spearmen hanging around?

 

[wilbill]

It's really a gameplay issue. The AI tends not to upgrade its units anyway, so allowing the human to accumulate armies with units that are always current would be a bit unbalancing. Civ3 is full of quirks in which gameplay took precedence over history.
Of course if you actually build an army of spearmen (or any defensive unit) you'd deserve to be stuck with it, I guess.
An army of swordsmen is useful through the middle ages. An army of cavalry is still useful in the modern era. It's really not that big a drawback, IMO.

 

[drsteve]

I can see what you mean about balancing the gameplay. I think being unable to upgrade the army it has really only been annoying to me in playing Rise of Rome. You start the game with a leader, and I used him to form an army, and filled it with three Legionary I units. Now I have upgraded all my other Legionaries to Legionary III, but still have the original Legionary I units in the army.

In fact, since it took a while to get the army into battle, I was already producing Legionary II's before the army ever fought anyone. I probably should have waited before loading up the army. Ah well, such is life ...

I guess I assumed (and maybe this is a suggestion for the next update, or for Civ 4) that you would be able to upgrade the units in the army, but at an increased cost (maybe double the usual rate?) so that it wouldn't unbalance things too much, but would still allow the removal of obsolete units.

 

[TheNiceOne]

To me, this isn't a balance issue, but a gameplay issue. If you let units in armies be upgradeable (even with a higher cost), the choises related to armies would be much more shallow. Then, you would simply load it full with the best current unit and upgarde those ASAP.

Today, you must choose between several viable options: You may fill it with 3 units now, get a powerful army, but loose its value when you (and the AI) get better units. Or you may fill it with two units now, and an additional, better unit later. this will give you a more vulnerable (less HP) army now, but a better later. Or you may keep the army unfilled until you get the units you want to fill it with.

In additional to balance issues (getting an early army is way too powerful if you can upgrade), having non-upgradeable armies simply makes the game more interesting IMHO.

 

[drsteve]

OK, I can see what you mean there, "TheNiceOne". I guess since I assumed that armies could be upgraded (or perhaps more accurately, never thought about the issue) I have always just stuck the best attacking units available into my armies, and left it at that. I don't often make armies when playing full scale civ, since I tend to use leaders to rush improvements, so it is only when I have been playing the conquest scenarios (where armies already exist) that it has really started to become an issue. I guess I had a pretty one eyed view!

 

[wilbill]

Absolutely right about the gameplay issue, TNO. In my current game I saved my first MGL for a few turns and used it to rush the FP. Much more valuable than an army of swordsmen - or even cavalry (Knights - thank you Commander Bello ) had I waited a few turns for Chivalry.

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally posted by wilbill
Absolutely right about the gameplay issue, TNO. In my current game I saved my first MGL for a few turns and used it to rush the FP. Much more valuable than an army of swordsmen - or even cavalry had I waited a few turns for Chivalry.

Cavalries from Chivalry?
I guess, you have the "Soren" wonder and the "Stone of Tavis" present in your capital?

 

[majk-iii]

...then again, if the ai in civ 4 would use such things as armies better, it might not be such ad bad idea to make them at least "unloadable"?
Maybe more complex alltogether...

 

[model359]

I just picked up Conquest and to my surprise, I could not longer remove units from my armies...

I found out in PTW, that if you bring up your army and double click on one of the units in the army, it would allow you to disband them... if you removed all the units it would crash the game... but you could remove all but one, fill it with new units... then remove your last outdated unit...

hmmm, they seem to have fixed this bug in Conquest... darn...

 

[wilbill]

You weren't playing the latest patch of PTW. The load/unload army was fixed.

 

[model359]

Ah, that would explain that...