Usefulness of Courthouse & Police Station

[Pyrrhos]

This is not a full investigation, rather an indication. I've taken a save from a recent game and looked at three similar cities 1st, 2nd & 3rd ring OCP plus an island city at appx OCP 5, democracy. All had factory and hydro plant (bar the last one which had neither). I looked up the figures and then sold off first PS, then the CH. The first set of figures is without either, the second with CH, the third with both CH & PS

1st OCP (pop 14) 64sh+4w, 52gpt -- 66+3, 55gpt -- 66+3, 55gpt
2nd OCP (pop 18) 54sh+10w, 45gpt -- 60+7, 50gpt -- 62+6, 50gpt
3rd OCP (pop 17) 32sh+15w, 27gpt -- 38+12, 40gpt -- 42+10, 45gpt
Island (pop 12) 2sh+15w, 3gpt -- 4+4, 6gpt -- 4+4, 12gpt

As can be seen, both CH and PS increase productivity. At 2nd OCP, their construction cost will be returned in 30 turns with the added benefit of 150gp. I can now build Mech Inf in 2 turns with a waste of 12 shields instead of in 3 turns with a waste of 52 shields. At 3rd OCP, their construction cost will be returned in 24 turns with a bonus of 432gp. I can now build artillery in 2 turns with a waste of 4 shields set against 3 turns with a waste of 16 shields before.

At 1st OCP, the advantage is marginal, but the city isn't at full production yet. At the island, production times have effectively been halved and the gp return tripled.

 

[Pyrrhos]

(continued)

In the 30 turns it takes to return the investment (measured in shields), OCP 2 produces 15 Mech Inf against 10 without either CH or PS. In the 24 turns needed to return the investment, OCP 3 produces 12 artillery with as against 8 without.

If this result is applied to all OCP 1 cities (six), the GP return is 6x3gpt = +18 gpt with CH & PS. If we look at the OCP 2 ring (12 cities), the gain is 15x5gpt = + 60 gpt. At OCP 3 (18 cities), the corresponding result is 18x18gpt = +324.

If we assume that all cities in each OCP ring are equal (which they are not) and that it takes 30 turns to return the investment in shields of building CH & PS, this is the net gain:

OCP 2 produces 180 Mech Inf with as against 120 without -- plus 60 Mech Inf
OCP 3 produces 270 Artillery with as against 180 without -- plus 90 Artillery
OCP 2 yields an extra 1800GP, OCP 3 another 9720 for a total of +11,520GP if you build the CH & PS.

Now, I'd say that's a pretty good return on the investment...

 

[Sashie VII]

So they're useful.

So?



Most people don't use OCP though.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

please don't count in units where cities with or without courthouse have a different overrun. That is just not realistic. I Swap worked tiles around so that none of my cities have any overrun on what they produce. Also, in your example there just happens to be a great overrun without courthouse, but there will also be exaples where the courthouse does exactly nothing but just increase the overrun.

Just look at the shields, that is a good test. Don't add information that only devalues the whole thing.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Of course, I could decide to produce something which, as you correctly point out, just increases the overrun. The trick is to produce things that results in minimal overrun (or, put another way, maximises utilisation of your resources). Switching what you produce - ie 80, 100, 110, 120 shields (etc) - has the same effect as your swapping of tiles and requires less micromanagement.

This is indeed an OCP example, but the same principles apply whether you use C-x-x-x-x-C, C-x-x-x-C, C-x-x-C or C-x-C. At the same time, your tip to switch tiles between cities to suit current production is a very good tip indeed!

PS. Don't forget the lowly policeman! If using a couple of them tips the number of uncorrupted tiles from, say, 38 to 40, that's a LOT of overrun saved...

PPS. What about the money saved?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

You don't get what i am saying.

The courthouse has a value in shields and gold. I am not trying to dispute that.

Just keep it at shields and gold though. Don't think about units to build and the shields those cost. In some situations, the benefit will be bigger because of smaller overrun, in some cases, the benefit will be smaller because of more overrun. So don't look at those units. On average it will even out. (in fact, on average overrun will be bigger when you increase production, but i won't start bothering you about that and keep things simple)

"OCP 2 produces 180 Mech Inf with as against 120 without -- plus 60 Mech Inf" Here you imply a 50% production increase. That has little to do with reallity.

"2nd OCP (pop 18) 54sh+10w, 45gpt -- 60+7, 50gpt -- 62+6, 50gpt"
Here, you imply a (54 to 62) 14.8% production increase. That is what it is. ~15% in moderately low corrupt cities.

OCP or not indeed does not matter a while lot, the principle stays the same. It does however distort the results a little. In your test, cities have much more distance corruption compared to rank corruption than in a real game. Iirc, the courthouse and police station have effect on both those types of corruption though. So while it may change conclusions a little, it won't be very much.

 

[Pyrrhos]

You don't get what i am saying.

i won't start bothering you about that and keep things simple

Your implication that I am stupid is as needless as it is offensive. Perhaps you would do well to actually READ my posts before you start abusing another member. This is the Civ Fanatics Strategy and Tips forum - not "Great-is-HE WackenOpenAir appreciation society.

 

[thetrooper]

Pyrrhos: He's just trying to help.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Your implication that I am stupid is as needless as it is offensive. Perhaps you would do well to actually READ my posts before you start abusing another member. This is the Civ Fanatics Strategy and Tips forum - not "Great-is-HE WackenOpenAir appreciation society.

I am not saying you are stupid. I keep things simple and not go into discussion on that matter because it is hard or impossible to accurately calculate the average overrun at different production counts for cities for everyone, not just for stupid people.

I appreciate the way you look at things. You look at the numbers and you test things rather than just going by the gut feeling. I like that.
I do not think you are stupid, i do not want you to think you are stupid, i do not want anyone to think so.
I just wanted to help a bit, like the trooper said

If it looks like i think i know more about civ than you, that is not because i think you are stupid, not because i think i am great, it is because i spend some years of my live playing this game and analysing civ math way more than what seems healthy. I like it when others do that too, and i like to help them.

 

[drakdan]

Wacken, You do come off as condescending.

 

[gmaharriet]

(in fact, on average overrun will be bigger when you increase production, but i won't start bothering you about that and keep things simple)

I assumed he meant "I won't bother WITH that TO keep things simple". A discussion of this sort can be helpful to those of us who don't normally crunch the numbers, and WE (meaning me) appreciate a less complex explanation. I believe WOA speaks English as a second language, so his phrasing may imply something personal that he didn't actually mean.

Pyrrhos is very generous to share his insights and further discussion by WOA makes it clearer. I'm grateful to both of them.

 

[Kool Keith]

Enough people have taken offense to WOA in some way that maybe there is something to it. But I personally appreciate his contribution to the forums. There aren't that many excellent Civ 3 players who care to slum it up with the n00bs.

In addition, many people here do not have a perfect grasp of the English language. I have found that many people--even those using their first language--do not understand that the written word often comes off as cold or harsh when it is not meant to be.

 

[Pyrrhos]

What I shall do - when I find the time, lol - is to go across that map again and compare results for every town in the first, second and third ring, with and without CH & PS.

Since that game happens to have been played OCP, I'm sorry that all I can do is note what happens OCP. I simply will not play another game for some 15-20 hours just to satisfy the call for comparisons non-OCP. Perhaps Wacken himself would undertake to do the same for one of his games which is non-OCP?

The method Wacken pointed out (which, incidentally, I acknowleged) - to micromanage tiles between cities in (?)C-x-x-x-C (?) - is definitely doable and a good one! However, it would seem to me to be far too time-consuming to be worthwhile for most people(?) A similar method, far simpler but not as churlish about the odd tile or five lost to overrun, would be to build units of different types where the effect of overrun is least pronounced, ie if a you have the choice of building Artillery, Mech Inf or Modern Armour, each in three turns, selecting Artillery is the least efficient choice, Modern Armour the most.

IMO, saying that so-and-so many shields/gp are gained amounting to an increase in productivity of 15% is pointless and useless information. It's what you can DO that's worthwhile, therefore illustrating that with so-and-so many more units is USEFUL information. 14.8% or 16.3%, who cares???

 

[gmaharriet]

The method Wacken pointed out (which, incidentally, I acknowleged) - to micromanage tiles between cities in (?)C-x-x-x-C (?) - is definitely doable and a good one! However, it would seem to me to be far too time-consuming to be worthwhile for most people(?)

I would agree with you if my cities were placed OCP, but I use CxxC in my core and CxC in corrupt areas. Tile-sharing/exchanging with the tighter city placements becomes almost as much a habit as is managing your own workers. After you get used to it, you cease to think of it as an annoying chore.

 

[Roma]

how much commerce does a ch and ps acually remove( what percential)

 

[AutomatedTeller]

It's pretty complicated. There isn't a set percentage.

Essentially, in core cities, courts and police stations don't do an awful lot - a few percentage points - say, 5%->3% or 15%->12% or so.

In very corrupt cities, they don't do much - just reduce the maximum corruptoin for a city from 90%->80%->70%

In between, though, they can make a dramatic difference. Some cities that are 60 or 70% corrupt can drop to 25% or so.

This article http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/corruption_c3c.php explains it much, much better.

 

[eldar]

Just read the article. As it states, it's not just based on hours and hours of research: it's based on the actual game code. I don't think you can get much better than that!

 

[Roma]

thanks I owe you guys that artical help a lot~!

 

[Roma]

one last thing though that i havent seen answered was if the city was perocupied does corruption increase

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Do you mean if it has been owned by another civ ?

That does not have any influence on the corruption, only the risk of cultural conversion and, when you are still at war with the enemy, happiness.

All the factors that matter for corruption are found in that article. I think if something is not in the article, it does not affect corruption.