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useless AI in svn version

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by rashaverak, Oct 5, 2014.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Just to clarify:
    That's incorrect... it is instead BY DESIGN that there is not supposed to be a tech limit to religions on Divine Prophets and Choose Religions in combination. The ONLY limit there is intended very much to be a race to get the prophets and all religions will be in the game quite quickly on this setting.



    Last night I did a runthrough and observed AI behavior in the early game. Immediately, they cripple themselves by building replacement brutes/wanderers/chasers whenever they fall down below the amount of hunter/explorers they expect to have. This puts them terribly behind on a lot of things by tribalism. At that point they build a settler but they seem to have to wait a very long time for contracted defense units to be built and join them - I think this is because of the backlog of buildings that have already been queued and because the settler, once waiting for a CONTRACTED unit to join it, is snooty and won't accept the available help of other defensive units on hand. (To the point that I'm considering some tweaks to see if it would work a bit better.)

    Now... Alberts has already pointed out that the main issue causing trouble among options that we can see is (I can't remember if its Aggressive AI or Ruthless AI but one of those two turns the other on so I think it ends up being both of them.)

    Traits would ONLY have a role in potentially adjusting the speed of building settlers or economic health that would trigger the settler to be built and to be valid to depart to a destination. Outside of that, the leader personality may make an impact - traits are NOT personalities, only modifiers. They do not cause leaders to make differing decisions directly, only by what they influence perhaps having an effect that changes the situation in which a decision is being made. Therefore the trait options probably have NOTHING to do with it except to give some a little better edge than others.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    If traits can only have minor effect why does changing the traits actually have such a big effect?
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Sorry, I was not clear. Not having positive traits means that the ai nations spread 2-3 times faster than starting with the default traits.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It may be that they are recieving a distractionary positive effect too... I can run some tests to see what could be causing this.

    Also, negative effects on positive or default negative traits can have a dramatic effect on economy as well.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Normally I don't use ant traits options. Just changing to use the "no positive traits" option has a huge effect on the effectiveness of the ai. This could be due to their traits or the removal of my traits.
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Are you also using Developing Leaders then? (That No Positive Traits at Gamestart option would be a little odd without it unless you want NO traits by selecting that and No Negative Traits in combination.)
     
  8. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    No it's not incorrect. Why, in that it causes player confusion and Modders have told players not to use them together. You have Designed them to have no tech limit but the player does Not know that from the Option selections and Mouse overs. And the scenario I posted happens all too often.

    I'm not attacking your Divine Prophets Option T-Brd but there is no mention that when it is used in conjunction with Choose Religions the tech limits are removed for founding Any religion with a prohpet, whether researched in game or not. And that is repeatedly reported as a bug.

    JosEPh
     
  9. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    :confused::crazyeye:
     
  10. Rodnok

    Rodnok Warlord

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    Right, the tooltip says that the Ruthless AI is a step above the Aggressive AI and I noticed that even with Aggressive AI off and Ruthless AI ON in the starting options both are ON when playing and checking F8 - settings. So I had to turn both of them off now. I wonder how the game will be, I used to play with Ruthless AI by default since they introduced it in BetterAI or how it was called.

    My playtesting shows they all get 2 cities in the start (deity 2nd band of homo sapiens) but that's all I can say so far.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I should probably make mention of it in the option hoverover text, yes. Just saying, they DO work together as designed. To me, this is all that makes sense of the two in combination. Choose Religions removes the tech consideration for religions but still only gives techs as the only way to get a religion. Since DP makes it possible for prophets, generated in any way including getting a free one at those religion techs, it only makes sense that the combination of both casts tech prerequisites completely aside. Now that I'm a bit more developed as a programmer/modder I could look into establishing a # of religions unlocked limit but at the time that would've been extremely difficult. And I sometimes like the no tech limit aspect of it (though lately I've personally taken to turning off CR so as to get a more pure feel for the game progress as designed. And now with Developing Leaders I don't feel scrwed when I only get lots of culture out of my shrines ;) )

    Well... that's an improvement! :D They were struggling with that a few updates ago.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    No other trait options selected.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    So... just no positive traits at all huh? Only negative ones... interesting. At that point, only the negative traits would have an influence. Some of those do have some benefits. This would be the 'all leaders suck to varying degrees' mode.
     
  14. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    So, Play with only Negative Traits on (no positive traits, no developing leaders) for besr results in terms of AI expansion?
     
  15. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    I found that agressive Barbs (ie MORE barbs) hinder the AI much more in expanding then the player somehow. But waaaay before even Tribalism, I found the the celts declare war on the egypts and only 1 or 2 turns later (!) they conquered their capital :eek: Amazing!
     
  16. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    I have to correct myself: The AI builds still (or again) tons of healers. I found a stack of "doom" that contains more than 500 healers and they still build more.
    In the attached savegame look at the tile south of Savanna: There are 486 Healers there.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Thanks for the save. It did provide a number of insights into oversights. Previous adjustments seemed to work great until the map gets a bit more complex. I've had to pull some much more complex tricks to reign things in (though I'm still a bit confused as to why and how they end up stacking up like that on plots I can't see any declared cause for them to be on... there's probably more that will need to be done.)

    The next update should help but it would take a while for a game like this to clear up (I'm very sorry for that!) If after some time they're still acting stupid I'll take another look.
     
  18. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Tried a game on my noraml settings- eternity, huge,....

    Normally the lack of expansion frustrates but this time played with no barbarins... big difference!

    By Ancinet period and plenty of cisv have 4 or 5 cities
     
  19. alberts2

    alberts2 Emperor

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    That exactly as i would have quessed on it.

    It always makes me wonder why people think things like barbarins and a few other options make the game harder. They might at some point but the same goes for the other 'AI' players so in the end the game becomes easier.
     
  20. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    I will test some more to make sure.


    But I dont know if its normal but sometiems they leave very big spaces between cities
     

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